Rustoleum Auto Primer

[laika]

Blending doesn't work well with tempera. It dries almost immediately. You build up form by crosshatching. It requires very skillful brush control, which is beyond me now.

I know exactly where you're coming from, Musket, but check out this guy. He's just painting - none of that very tip of a #2 sable brush method:

He also painted a portrait of his dad without all the cross-hatching in another video.

 

[Artyczar]

Looking at the Rustoleum website, I see a lot of products for all types of surfaces . They have a water based wood primer for exterior wood under the Zinsser lable that sounded good, blocked tannin etc, and was cheap, but then I read this;

" Zinsser Exterior Wood primer is not recommended for surfaces subject to immersion or prolonged contact with water. Not recommended for composite or engineered wood. For decks, use Rust-Oleum Deck Start Wood Primer. "

That made me wonder about it for use on hardboard, MDF and plywood.

See, that would be ideal: an acrylic/water-based wood sealer. I probably need this because I would rather use the acrylic gesso I already have here because I have a gallon of it. I don't really know (and don't think) if I can put an acrylic gesso over the Universal Sanding Sealer, despite it having the word "universal" because I think it's basically oil-based. That would not work if that's true.

I would not expose my panel to prolonged water, so there's not a problem there, and I am not sealing a composite or engineered panel. It's birch. I am going to look into this. Thank you Trier.

 

[Artyczar]

Rabbit skin glue is available in dry powder form and wet from Blick and Amazon. So is calcium carbonate. You don't want it in your septic, but they are natural products and could be poured in a hole and buried.

I wouldn't want all the animals to dig that up. We have tons and tons of rabbits, chipmunks, and coyotes, most of which dig like crazy, especially the little chipmunks. In any case, I don't think I would size a panel anyway. But thanks Zen!

 

[laika]

See, that would be ideal: an acrylic/water-based wood sealer. I probably need this because I would rather use the acrylic gesso I already have here because I have a gallon of it.

The rule when using artists material is oil over acrylic is okay, but not the other way round.

 

[Artyczar]

The rule when using artists material is oil over acrylic is okay, but not the other way round.

Yes. I know. I wasn't suggesting I would do the other way around. This has been why I'm trying to find a solution. Maybe I'm not communicating properly.

 

[laika]

Maybe I'm not communicating properly.

Sorry, it's probably me.

 

[Artyczar]

No..it's most likely ME!!!!

 

[Lazarus]

Those two brands are made in the US, which is maybe your point: importation costs on both sides of the pond.

Yes might be. still i need to pay around 30% more.

 

[Bongo]

See, that would be ideal: an acrylic/water-based wood sealer. I probably need this because I would rather use the acrylic gesso I already have here because I have a gallon of it. I don't really know (and don't think) if I can put an acrylic gesso over the Universal Sanding Sealer, despite it having the word "universal" because I think it's basically oil-based. That would not work if that's true.

The method with Rustoleum Auto Primer is that you paint oils right on top of it -- no gesso or other prep necessary. The surface is supposedly the same as the much vaunted Ampersand panel.

They didn't carry the Rustoleum Auto Primer at Home Depot, or O-Reillys Auto Parts. So I'll have to find a source for it.

 

[laika]

The method with Rustoleum Auto Primer is that you paint oils right on top of it -- no gesso or other prep necessary.

I hope you find some soon and tell us what you think about it. I understand the appeal - that stuff holds up in much worse conditions than a painting would ever see. Use acrylic gesso to prime your car and report back in 6 months ;-)

 

[musket]

I know exactly where you're coming from, Musket, but check out this guy. He's just painting - none of that very tip of a #2 sable brush method:

He also painted a portrait of his dad without all the cross-hatching in another video.

You could use a cosmetic sponge, too.

"Just painting" is fine. Any number of tempera painters are experimenting with new techniques. But to me, granted that a monitor is not the best way to view anything and that the image is small, this painting might as well have been done with poster paints, or maybe semi-matte acrylics.

The kind of work I was once good at in 3D, and to a more limited extent in 2D, is by nature finicky. It imposes certain parameters on what can be accomplished with it. This is what appeals to me about egg tempera applied in the Medieval manner. It requires discipline--in fact, Daniel V. Thompson, in his classic book The Practice of Tempera Painting, calls it just that, a discipline.

These are works in tempera done with more than just painting.

Koo Schadler

Different brush strokes, as it were (I never used anything smaller than a #4 Raphael 8408 or Scharff 3000, which can handle the finest detail, as can a #6 of either if the belly doesn't get in the way of your sightline).

Anyhoo, I'm running the thread off the rails here.

I suspect that for most people, acrylic gesso would do fine as a ground for oils on panels. It just isn't the same thing as trad gesso. About Rustoleum, no clue. Personally I wouldn't take the chance; acrylic gesso is cheap enough.

I see no advantage to Baltic birch plywood, which is very expensive, over hardboard. Should anyone here decide to give the plywood a go anyway, remember that applying any water-based ground to it will raise the grain. In order to avoid this, the panel should be misted with water, allowed to dry, and then sanded to the desired smoothness. It's best to do this several times (SOP for preparing spruce soundboards for musical instruments prior to finishing). Also, shellac is water resistant up to a point. But not waterproof.

 

[john]

Some good info from Winsor and Newton about choosing a surface and priming it. https://www.winsornewton.com/na/education/guides/all-about-priming-canvas/

 

[bethany]

Two years ago I started painting on aluminium composite panel- two thin panels of aluminium with plastic in the middle, coated with acrylic paint. I can buy them from the local hardware (Australia) - easy to cut to size. They are for signs. One side is black paint, one side is white.
I lightly sand the black side, wipe with denatured alcohol (metholated spirits) and then spray with Rustoleum primer (outside) It comes in many colours- I prefer this neutral grey.
It gives a beautiful matt finish which is a dream to paint oils on. I love the smooth surface for portraits.

 

[Bongo]

good to hear. May try it instead of the hard-to-find "automotive primer".

Walmart has Rustoleum automotive primer (in light gray) on its website. Don't know if they carry it locally. Shipping from the website is more than the product.

 

[john]

Two years ago I started painting on aluminium composite panel- two thin panels of aluminium with plastic in the middle, coated with acrylic paint. I can buy them from the local hardware (Australia) - easy to cut to size. They are for signs. One side is black paint, one side is white.
I lightly sand the black side, wipe with denatured alcohol (metholated spirits) and then spray with Rustoleum primer (outside) It comes in many colours- I prefer this neutral grey.
It gives a beautiful matt finish which is a dream to paint oils on. I love the smooth surface for portraits.

View attachment 14067

That's probably a really good solution. After all signs are meant to last under harsh conditions.

Only thing that would worry me - but I'm no expert - is the paint/aluminum interface. With canvas and wood products the primer penetrates into the fibers forming a physical bond with them. That doesn't happen with paint/metal bonds.

 

[musket]

If I recall correctly, aluminum panels for painting are available ready to go from Blick, or maybe Jerry's. From what I understand, some of the best preserved old oil paintings were painted on copper. Since copper doesn't react to changes in humidity, unlike wood panels or canvas, there's little to no craquelure on these works. Which of course aren't very big, but would indicate that aluminum is probably okay.

 

[Artyczar]

FYI, for people who were interested in my birch panel prep. I did some more research yesterday and you can in fact use acrylic/water-based gesso over the Zinsser Universal Sanding Sealer. I am so relieved about this. It will accept any type of overcoat, and can also be applied to any finish that is already there. However, I suggest you always give a panel a good sanding before applying any sealer so the sealer has something porous to soak into, preferably the raw wood.

The Universal Sanding Sealer is wax-free, and alcohol-based (can be cleaned up with alcohol), so it's not an oil-based shellac like other sealers. I've been using this stuff for many years. I mix it with a 2:1 DH alcohol mixture and five sandings in between.

This was what I was wanting for this one particular panel I'm about to work with. It is just a little different from what I usually do because it had water-based yellow milk paint over the raw wood (and Sharpie writing) to begin with. I need to sand that off, seal it, then gesso it so I can start a new oil painting on it. And I'm happy I can save the panel now instead of buying a new one.

PS: I do not sand it five times on the back. I just give it two generous coats on the back. The sides, because I use a 2-inch profile, do get the same pretty sandings as the front. Because I'm putting gesso on the front of this particular panel, I will probably do four coats instead of five.

My personal opinion on the Rustoleum Auto Primer is not to use it on professional birch wood artist's panels. You know, that paint is really meant to be used on metal and meant to take enamel paint on top. It's for cars and it helps to protect from rusting. This is just my opinion and I don't want to be a contrarian. I've just worked with professional woodworkers that specifically make artists panels and canvases (and easels). This has been their business for generations and I trust their opinions wholly.

As for MDF or particle/pressed wood, or even Masonite, I don't work with those surfaces, and admit, I can't advice on those, but I suspect you can just prime Masonite and get going. I do think pressed wood would still need sealing. It would swell and contract all the same.

 

[laika]

The Universal Sanding Sealer is wax-free, and alcohol-based (can be cleaned up with alcohol), so it's not an oil-based shellac like other sealers. I've been using this stuff for many years. I mix it with a 2:1 DH alcohol mixture and five sandings in between.

Oil-based shellac?

 

[P. Barrie]

FYI. Masonite is different than Tempered hardboard. Masonite is processed differently. Masonite is usually only smooth on one side, the other side with hatching or press marks. It is not as dense or strong as Tempered Hardboard. Tempered hardboard is what Ampersand uses for their art quality panels and IMO, that is a better product to use for making and prepping panels. In the USA TH is available at building supply stores like Home Depot and Lowes, although those products are probably not as good as Ampersand.
Some artists argue that you dont need to seal TH prior to Gessoing, due to the Baking and pressing of the board during MFG. However, I choose to seal first just to be sure. I would not like to see any brown oil stains surface at a later date.

 

[laika]

I would not like to see any brown oil stains surface at a later date.

I've been told that that's the reason to use untempered hardboard: it doesn't contain the brown oil. I use Richeson brand hardboard and it certainly doesn't look like it's been tempered. And now that you mention it, my Ampersand ClayBord does have the darker color of tempered hardboard on the back.