Rustoleum Auto Primer

[Artyczar]

Right about the rabbit skin glue for trad gesso for egg tempera.

Koo Schadler, an expert tempera painter, has an article about making trad gesso and preparing a panel here--

https://www.artistsnetwork.com/art-techniques/homemade-gesso-recipe-for-a-true-gesso-panel/

Seems like a lotta work and I don't know how suitable it is for oils, which are completely different from egg tempera, though I do know that Koo sometimes uses oils and tempera together-- oils over tempera if I'm not mistaken.

Cochineal was mostly used for dying cloth--there's an interesting book about it, A Perfect Red, author's name forgotten. Genuine madder lake is made from madder roots and is considered fugitive, even more than alizarin (which is the primary chemical colorant in madder roots).

Oh jesus. This is a royal pain in the ass. There must be some place that makes a non-homemade no-cook concoction. I actually live in a rural area on top of a septic and would never be able to rid of the leftover of this stuff anyway. I mean, I could dispose of it properly eventually, but I am just too lazy to cook rabbit skin glue. There must be an easier way to prep a panel. I'd rather seal it, then use an oil-based primer.

 

[laika]

Oh jesus. This is a royal pain in the ass. There must be some place that makes a non-homemade no-cook concoction. I actually live in a rural area on top of a septic and would never be able to rid of the leftover of this stuff anyway. I mean, I could dispose of it properly eventually, but I am just too lazy to cook rabbit skin glue. There must be an easier way to prep a panel. I'd rather seal it, then use an oil-based primer.

Yes, but her paintings will last a thousand years

 

[Artyczar]

I'm just looking for hundreds of years. Ha ha ha. I don't charge that much for my art.

 

[P. Barrie]

Oh jesus. This is a royal pain in the ass. There must be some place that makes a non-homemade no-cook concoction. I actually live in a rural area on top of a septic and would never be able to rid of the leftover of this stuff anyway. I mean, I could dispose of it properly eventually, but I am just too lazy to cook rabbit skin glue. There must be an easier way to prep a panel. I'd rather seal it, then use an oil-based primer.

I think Rabbit skin glue is normally used to size canvas by some artists who must believe it is better somehow. However research has concluded that modern acrylic gesso is more archival for sizing and grounding canvas. I dont think rabbit skin glue would be good on a panel either. The panel doesn’t need sizing, it needs sealing.
There is a difference.
This procedure https://www.artistsnetwork.com/art-techniques/homemade-gesso-recipe-for-a-true-gesso-panel/ , descibes a panel that has canvas attached to it
Arty, The method you described for bare panel prepping for oils or acrylic is one that I have seen noted by many professionals for the same reasons you noted. For oils, oil base primer or acrylic gesso over sealed surface. For acrylics, acrylic gesso over sealed surface. Modern primers and gesso are mostly superior, providing you get high quality product that fits the application. Sounds like you already are doing it right.

 

[john]

Digital artists don't have to worry about this obsessive nonsense.

 

[P. Barrie]

That sounds interesting. Aluminum would have sounded odd to me, but I read lately that painting on aluminum panels is popular.



I warped two or three small, thin, uncradled hardboard pieces recently when applying my first ever batch of hide glue (unflavored gelatin in this case) and marble dust gesso a few months ago. I think maybe I should have let the size dry longer. The process was time-intensive but not without its own pleasures. And the ingredients were pretty inexpensive. No doubt the Birch plywood you mention would be nice!

You need to coat all sides and edges or it will dry unevenly and warp. I found that the cheaper 1/8”thick panels will warp regarless, unless they are smaller than 5” x 7”.

 

[P. Barrie]

He is a world-renowned artist -- but not a materials expert. He's sharing his experience and those of his peers. Masonite is a good cheap substrate - Rustoleum is a quick, easy, cheap way to get an Ampersand-like finish on a panel. He's passing on his experience and a masonite and Rustoleum panel will last a loooong time. It's like - "hey kids an inexpensive way to get a fantastic painting surface that will last" -- not saying this is the best scientifically proven substrate.

Aerosol sprays are convenient, but not really cheaper. Average size Rustoleum spray cans contain 12oz. and where I am, cost avg. $4. I buy a gallon (128oz.) of high quality oil base primer for around $35. So the cost per oz. is around the same. However, there is alot more waste with aerosol spray.
By the way, J. Pollack was world renowned and that did not stop him from using cheap inappropriate paints.

 

[Trier]

Looking at the Rustoleum website, I see a lot of products for all types of surfaces . They have a water based wood primer for exterior wood under the Zinsser lable that sounded good, blocked tannin etc, and was cheap, but then I read this;

" Zinsser Exterior Wood primer is not recommended for surfaces subject to immersion or prolonged contact with water. Not recommended for composite or engineered wood. For decks, use Rust-Oleum Deck Start Wood Primer. "

That made me wonder about it for use on hardboard, MDF and plywood.

 

[musket]

Traditional gesso is still considered the best ground specifically for egg tempera, a medium which is nothing like oil. It's been in use since Medieval times, and many tempera paintings of that era are still in remarkably good shape. Tempera people I've talked with tend to just dig stuff like this--after all, they must also make their paint fresh every day. What some people think of as obsessive, to me is just interesting. I'm very attracted to tempera, but no way I could possibly do it now.

 

[laika]

I dont think rabbit skin glue would be good on a panel either. The panel doesn’t need sizing, it needs sealing.
There is a difference.

Here are the instructions/recipe that I followed: https://www.temperaworkshop.com/technique/technique1.htm
In step 3, they repeatedly call it sizing, even though they aren't using any cloth: "Sizing is a binder applied to the roughed-up panel to provide a coarse surface for adhering the gesso. Traditionally, sizing was made from various animal skins, but today it is quicker and produces similar results to use unflavored, powdered gelatin."
Using cloth on hardboard/masonite is optional. Maybe they called the step sizing because cloth was common for hiding wood grain and hiding seams in big paintings with more than one panel. Also, there have been incidents in the past where a panel was damaged, but the painting and ground clung to the cloth.

Anyway, that site is where i got calling it sizing, even though, as you say, it is a primer/sealant in this use.

 

[laika]

I'm very attracted to tempera, but no way I could possibly do it now.

Some people use Ampersand Claybord and now NaturalPigments makes an acrylic-based gesso for egg tempera. Please note that all I am saying is that some people use these materials.

Making the binder and the paint is not a big deal at all. The biggest challenge for most people is the speed at which egg tempera dries to the touch, so blending on the surface would take a very fast hand.

 

[Lazarus]

I have never compared how many panels I could prime with one as opposed the other, but the Windsor & Newton alkyd primer was nearly 40.00 US dollars at the art store, whereas I could get the same amount of an alternative by volume for maybe $10.00 or $12.00 at the hardware store.

Just for the comparing prices between Blick and the cheapest store at my place, every procuct of Golden or Gamblin is cost between 7 to 10 $ more here.

 

[john]

Maybe getting away from the topic but what about oil paper? Seems like it should be ready to go without prep. I never used but I just saw something about this woman that uses it for her pallet knife paintings that are just gorgeous. https://georgiahartstudios.com/shop I've done a few pallet knife paintings and enjoy it very much and like the results. Only problem I can see is that they probably need to be mounted on a panel to keep from flexing. But they would save space until then.

 

[musket]

Blending doesn't work well with tempera. It dries almost immediately. You build up form by crosshatching. It requires very skillful brush control, which is beyond me now. Tempera painters want a very smooth substrate. The final step with the dried gesso on the panel is usually sanding with 600 grit silicon carbide wet-or-dry paper. Most prefer to use trad gesso, or pre-made trad gesso panels from the people in New Mexico.

 

[Lazarus]

Maybe getting away from the topic but what about oil paper? Seems like it should be ready to go without prep. I never used but I just saw something about this woman that uses it for her pallet knife paintings that are just gorgeous. https://georgiahartstudios.com/shop I've done a few pallet knife paintings and enjoy it very much and like the results. Only problem I can see is that they probably need to be mounted on a panel to keep from flexing. But they would save space until then.

 

[ZenDruid]

You need to coat all sides and edges or it will dry unevenly and warp. I found that the cheaper 1/8”thick panels will warp regarless, unless they are smaller than 5” x 7”.

Leaving one side untreated will allow moisture to migrate out, shrinking the wood on that side and causing the panel to warp. The warp can be corrected by laying the warped untreated side face down on a damp towel to re-absorb moisture, or outside on a shady patch of grass (gound moisture). This also works on large boards.

 

[ZenDruid]

Oh jesus. This is a royal pain in the ass. There must be some place that makes a non-homemade no-cook concoction. I actually live in a rural area on top of a septic and would never be able to rid of the leftover of this stuff anyway. I mean, I could dispose of it properly eventually, but I am just too lazy to cook rabbit skin glue. There must be an easier way to prep a panel. I'd rather seal it, then use an oil-based primer.

Rabbit skin glue is available in dry powder form and wet from Blick and Amazon. So is calcium carbonate. You don't want it in your septic, but they are natural products and could be poured in a hole and buried.

 

[laika]

Just for the comparing prices between Blick and the cheapest store at my place, every procuct of Golden or Gamblin is cost between 7 to 10 $ more here.

Those two brands are made in the US, which is maybe your point: importation costs on both sides of the pond.

 

[laika]

Rabbit skin glue is available in dry powder form and wet from Blick and Amazon. So is calcium carbonate. You don't want it in your septic, but they are natural products and could be poured in a hole and buried.

Good point. It would be like burying some Jello and a stick of chalk.

 

[Artyczar]

By the way, J. Pollack was world renowned and that did not stop him from using cheap inappropriate paints.

It's Pollock I believe.