Rustoleum Auto Primer

[musket]

I warped two or three small, thin, uncradled hardboard pieces recently when applying my first ever batch of hide glue (unflavored gelatin in this case) and marble dust gesso a few months ago. I think maybe I should have let the size dry longer. The process was time-intensive but not without its own pleasures. And the ingredients were pretty inexpensive. No doubt the Birch plywood you mention would be nice!

Gelatin and hide glue aren't the same thing (even if they're made of the same stuff). Gelatin is the trad ingredient for real gesso, but as a size by itself leaves much to be desire compared to hide glue. Unfortunately there are many kinds of hide glue and you'd need to do further research to find out which is best for your purpose-- I'm sure the people at Kremer Pigments would know.

 

[john]

I've painted on cheap pre gessoed craft store canvas, prepared by me panels with acrylic gesso, and on prepared gessoed panels. I can't say there was or is much difference. Other than texture difference between canvas and panel. My problem is not the painting surface.

I've realized that I like my small paintings as much as the bigger ones so I'm going with smaller sizes now. So I've been thinking of just going with the Ampersand prepared panels. They're only around 15 bucks for the 9x12. Considering time spent cutting and preparing my own I don't think it's worth making my own. And I have feeling that Ampersand has this stuff figured out.

Something to be said for using cheap craft store canvas. You don't care as much about it. It can let you loosen up and try stuff.

 

[laika]

Considering time spent cutting and preparing my own I don't think it's worth making my own.

Yup, there is that aspect to consider. Preparing your own surface is probably something for people who want to do it for one reason or another. I was motivated to make my gelatin and marble dust gesso because I was told that it (or something very like it) was the absolute best surface for egg tempera, but at the same time, there are prepared panels that would satisfy even a serious traditional iconographer if one were willing to spring for the cost. Rolling your own is probably a false economy if you don't enjoy doing it.

 

[Marc]

Rustoleum Auto Primer MAYBE very good. But as I don't know what's in it, I don't trust it myself. I'm firmly in the avoid zinc oxide crowd. So as I can't find out if there's any of this pigment in it, I'll stick to my lead or acrylic primers.

 

[laika]

Gelatin and hide glue aren't the same thing (even if they're made of the same stuff). Gelatin is the trad ingredient for real gesso, but as a size by itself leaves much to be desire compared to hide glue.

Well, I have been told that anything less than rabbit skin glue from French rabbits is less than ideal, but there was the gelatin beckoning me from the grocery store shelf ;-) But seriously, now that you mention it, I have seen debates among woodworkers online about what deserves to be called hide glue. The gelatin that I used was made from the connective tissues of Brazilian horses and pigs as far as I could ascertain. The size that I made was a slightly different mix of gelatin and water from the gelatin into which the marble dust was mixed.

 

[Marc]

In short. bauman says in one of his film which i wont trace right now to give as evidance, he was speak about the A crimson as non color and recommend to avoid it.

He probably just meant it's poor colour as it's lightfastness is borderline. Or, possibly, relating to the fact that's not a true pigment colour, but a dye soaked into a transparent white base. This product is commonly called a Lake. Obviously it still has an actual colour.

 

[Marc]

Isn't "real" Aliz Crimson a fugitive color? I'd be surprised to find the real smashed-up-bugs kind of it anywhere today.

Alizarin Crimson is JUST considered within the lightfast range, but still fairly poor. I guess with lightfastness they had to draw the line in the sand somewhere. Alizarin is a synthetic version of madder root. You're thinking of cochineal beetles, which is indeed generally judged to be fugitive.

 

[laika]

You're thinking of cochineal beetles, which is indeed generally judged to be fugitive.

Busted! Thanks for the correction. What was it that was made with the beetles?

 

[john]

Painting on fugitive beetles is the worst. They won't stand still.

 

[Hermes2020]

Busted! Thanks for the correction. What was it that was made with the beetles?

Lacquer, I believe.

 

[Bongo]

IMO, this guy is a hack, if I were you I would be careful taking any advice from him. He says nothing about type of MDF, thickness, or sealing all sides and edges. And, one must shop around hard to find a paint MFG that still uses the old fugitive Alizarin pigment.

He is a world-renowned artist -- but not a materials expert. He's sharing his experience and those of his peers. Masonite is a good cheap substrate - Rustoleum is a quick, easy, cheap way to get an Ampersand-like finish on a panel. He's passing on his experience and a masonite and Rustoleum panel will last a loooong time. It's like - "hey kids an inexpensive way to get a fantastic painting surface that will last" -- not saying this is the best scientifically proven substrate.

 

[laika]

Lacquer, I believe.

Y'all are making me do my homework. Lac insect secretions are used to make shellac. Cochineal scale insects were used in the making of Crimson Lake paint. Rose Madder Lake is/was a synthetic Rose Madder, also known as Rose Madder Alizarin and Alizarin Crimson.

 

[laika]

Masonite is a good cheap substrate...

I'll bet most people would agree with that, but some say you want tempered masonite and some say untempered is best for painting. Looks like most art supply sources use untempered.

 

[Artyczar]

I've realized that I like my small paintings as much as the bigger ones so I'm going with smaller sizes now. So I've been thinking of just going with the Ampersand prepared panels. They're only around 15 bucks for the 9x12. Considering time spent cutting and preparing my own I don't think it's worth making my own. And I have feeling that Ampersand has this stuff figured out.

I believe you still have to seal the ampersand birch panels. Maybe not the ones that are "prepared" with a gesso surface, but the raw wood ones you do. They might have a thin seal on them, but I really doubt they're good enough, and I don't trust that the sides and back are sealed sufficiently. A lot of people don't realize that you have to seal the entire panel or else it can warp at any time in the future. Especially in ordinary storage situations, like a garage or something.

I do FIVE coats on the front surface. The first coat is not sparingly by any means because the wood drinks it up pretty good. I use a very fine grit sand paper between DRY coats, like 400+ and the rest of the coats are thinner. Nice and even with a good synthetic brush, like a Purdy. I've always used the Bullseye Universal Sealer and DH Alcohol mixture. You don't have to sand the back of the panel obviously. Just seal it good, but you probably want to do the sides like you do the surface so it's pretty, unless you aren't painting on a thick profile. If you aren't, disregard this.

I sell my work, so this stuff is important. If you don't care what happens to the work, or if you don't care if the paint falls off, or the panels warp, or this kind of thing, you can just ignore me.

I personally would not use Kilz (not as a habit anyway), or what this guy is saying to use, but that's only because I've never heard of this kind of thing before from any of my professional panel makers in the business who have been making professional artist panels their entire lives from their fathers, and their fathers. I also know a number of woodworkers.

I may not know anyone on YouTube though. I'm behind the times on that for sure. And I am lacking on this piece of information about how to white gesso over the Universal sealer. It must be an oil-based gesso, right? Can anyone recommend a good oil-based gesso? I've actually not used one myself.

 

[musket]

Right about the rabbit skin glue for trad gesso for egg tempera.

Koo Schadler, an expert tempera painter, has an article about making trad gesso and preparing a panel here--

https://www.artistsnetwork.com/art-techniques/homemade-gesso-recipe-for-a-true-gesso-panel/

Seems like a lotta work and I don't know how suitable it is for oils, which are completely different from egg tempera, though I do know that Koo sometimes uses oils and tempera together-- oils over tempera if I'm not mistaken.

Cochineal was mostly used for dying cloth--there's an interesting book about it, A Perfect Red, author's name forgotten. Genuine madder lake is made from madder roots and is considered fugitive, even more than alizarin (which is the primary chemical colorant in madder roots).

 

[john]

Wow Arty you go the extra mile!

The Ampersand panels I'm talking about are the gessoboard ones here https://ampersandart.com/panels/gessobord?size=55

I've used the cradled birch panels before also. I painted this on one and it was cool because the grain of the wood became part of the painting. But I did things a little different. This is watercolor directly on the wood with some oil paint for the horse. Then I sprayed with UV protection acrylic clear finish.

 

[musket]

There is an outfit called True Gesso in NM which makes trad gesso panels. They have a Facebook page.

 

[laika]

I sell my work, so this stuff is important. If you don't care what happens to the work, or if you don't care if the paint falls off, or the panels warp, or this kind of thing, you can just ignore me.

Yes, definitely, IMHO, that's the ethical thing to do if you're painting to sell.
I try to make clear in this type discussion that I'm not painting with the intention of selling.

Also, you are right to be so concerned about sealing. It protects against the possibility of stuff leaching out of wood or canvas and discoloring and/or seals against some damaging substance (tannic acid and the like) leaching into your work from behind.

 

[Artyczar]

Wow Arty you go the extra mile!

The Ampersand panels I'm talking about are the gessoboard ones here https://ampersandart.com/panels/gessobord?size=55

I've used the cradled birch panels before also. I painted this on one and it was cool because the grain of the wood became part of the painting. But I did things a little different. This is watercolor directly on the wood with some oil paint for the horse. Then I sprayed with UV protection acrylic clear finish.


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John, this is an extraordinary painting! I love it, and love the woodgrain showing through, which is why I treat my panels the way I do--in order to show the wood on my paintings.

I actually prefer using the Ampersand gessoboard panels these days for most of my oil paintings that cover the entire surface. I do not prefer canvas anymore, other for the fact they they are lighter.

The thing is, I have not ever needed to seal a panel, then gesso it white and then start a painting. Sure, I can buy a premade one, but I already have birch panel here that I need to sand down and seal, then cover it with white gesso and begin a new painting. I don't want to just waste it since I have it. It is an old panel I have from a billion years back that was milk painted (water-based), with some Sharpie writing on it, and never sealed. I'm going to sand it back to its original surface, but no doubt, some of the yellow milk paint and writing will still show. It needs gesso. But it should be sealed, so I'm a little confused as to what to do to it.

I'll look at the link that musket provided.

 

[laika]

Seems like a lotta work and I don't know how suitable it is for oils, which are completely different from egg tempera, though I do know that Koo sometimes uses oils and tempera together-- oils over tempera if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks for the link! And yes, a proper surface for egg tempera would probably be too absorbent for oils, but I've been told that oil over egg tempera is OK.