Why do I admire this?

N

Nufocus

I’ll upload a painting by Franz Klein that strikes me as a wonderful and powerful visual statement. Occasionally I try hard to create something 1% as good as this and fail. These trials and failures bring to mind over and over again the statement that creating a GOOD abstract piece is much harder than creating a figurative one.
I know that a lot of folks, here on this site and elsewhere, are great admirers of realism and even hyper realism where technical ability reigns.
However, I strongly believe that true artistic expression is NOT about showing off technical ability, but about being able to “expose your soul” or in more vulgar words “spill your guts” by means of brush strokes on some surface. Obviously, I’m talking about painting here, not sculpture.
It’d be interesting I think, if members uploaded images they admire with brief explanations why they do so.
Cheers!
 

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Conrad Jon Godly


for aesthetics of paint itself
 
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Wow John, this is great! I never heard of that guy. But after seeing your post I checked him out. Very appropriate for this thread (for me at least) is the fact that Conrad, after being a top photographer for years (what can be more realistic?) resorted that evocative type of statement. Thanks!
 
Occasionally I try hard to create something 1% as good as this and fail. These trials and failures bring to mind over and over again the statement that creating a GOOD abstract piece is much harder than creating a figurative one.

I don't believe that in the least. I have worked abstractly and figuratively. I think that each manner of working has its own challenges.

I know that a lot of folks, here on this site and elsewhere, are great admirers of realism and even hyper-realism where technical ability reigns. However, I strongly believe that true artistic expression is NOT about showing off technical ability, but about being able to “expose your soul” or in more vulgar words “spill your guts” by means of brush strokes on some surface.

I believe that technical skill does impact our experience of a work of art. Michelangelo's Pietà, Bernini's Apollo & Daphne, or Vermeer and Ingres' paintings certainly impress us due in part to their technical merits. But technical ability is not limited to the ability to render to "photographically" render the illusion of visual reality. Nor is technical skill the sole merit of fine works of "realism" or figurative art".

John Sloan, the American realist, argued: "'Looks like' is not the test of a good painting. It indicates merely visual similarity".

I agree that there are a good number of "realists" and lovers of "realism" who cannot appreciate anything outside of "realism". But at the same time, there are just as many adherents to Modernism and Abstraction who cannot appreciate the finest works of "realism" or figurative art.

I'm not certain about the notion that "true artistic expression" lies within being able to "expose your soul" or "spill your guts". This is a Romantic notion of art IMO. I agree that an artist may be able to trigger an emotional response in a good many viewers through his or her choice of subject, color, brushwork, etc... but "expose his/her soul?" I have long felt that it is the viewer that brings an emotional (or other) response to a work of art. What I find deeply moving or poetic may do nothing for another viewer. My response is based upon my prior knowledge, my prior experience, etc... At the same time, I agree that every work of Art reveals something of the artist whether it is autobiographical or not.

It’d be interesting I think, if members uploaded images they admire with brief explanations why they do so.

I began a thread some time back on "guilty pleasures"... works that we admire although we suspect we shouldn't. I recognize you are speaking of something different when you ask "why do I admire this?"

How about this?

mm1.jpg


mm2.jpg


I love Lee Bontecou's paintings... or assemblages... from the 1960s. They strike me as being at once architectural... suggestive of alien space ships... and organic... alluding to bodily orifices. I find them both Modern and ancient... weathered... timeless. They certainly show a mastery of technique while conveying a mood to me. While Rauschenberg's assemblages might seem more audacious, I find Bontecou's more "poetic" and solidly composed.
 
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SLG, I agree with much of what you said. Except of course the items I disagree with....
To try and illustrate what I previously said and to negate what you had to say about the impact technical skill has (or does not have) on our appreciation of a work of art, I’ll quote Picasso (whom I believe you greatly admire): “It took me three years (correct the number if it’s wrong) to paint like Raphael but it took me a lifetime to paint like a child again”.
I do agree that the emotional impact is on the part of the viewer. However, when the artist does “spill his guts”, as opposed to showing off his technical skill, that impact in the viewer will be more powerful, I believe. Not in every viewer of course, but.....
I’ll upload here 3 examples that may be worth more than a thousand words. The first two do have gut spilling in them (imho), while the third is a show of great technical skill and is fairly devoid of the artist’s own emotional involvement.
 

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And as much as we dislike talking about money being a means of appreciating a work of art (and let’s not go there because we discussed this subject previously quite a bit...), I’d have to say that if Starry Night were to be auctioned it would probably fetch $500M or so. The Scream (the least successful of the three) already fetched $120M (I think) and Bouguereau would probably go for no more than $20-25M or so.
 
If you looked at as many works by Van Gogh as possible, you must have come to the conclusion that his technical skill was never even close to that of Bouguerea. The same should be said about Munch.
 
like with novels and poetry… neither is superior


but they are different
 
I find it interesting that Picasso chose Raphael as opposed to Rembrandt, Michelangelo, or Leonardo for his quote. At the time, Raphael's reputation had declined from where it stood in the 19th-century when he was the inspiration for not only Bouguereau but also Degas, Ingres, and many others. If we're honest, Picasso was undoubtedly a child prodigy. This is more than impressive for a 14 or 15 year old:

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But in no way does it equal Raphael:

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When we speak of the artist "spilling his guts" or some such thing, we are speaking of "self-expression"... a concept that did not exist until the Romantic era. Artists in the Renaissance or the Baroque or the Neo-Classical era would never have even thought of "the self"... one's personal emotions as a worthy subject of art. As I suggested earlier, this does not mean that these works of art do not convey something of the artist.

The Romantic notion of the expression of the self as the central goal of art was rejected by many subsequent eras and artistic period. Impressionism had little or nothing to do with this notion. Some Modernists lean toward the Romantic: I would say this is true of the Expressionists, Picasso, and later, the Abstract Expressionists. But Matisse? Pop Art?

They commonly teach Art Criticism as following one or more of the dominant aesthetic theories: "Realism" (or Imitationism), Formalism, Emotionalism, Narrative and/or Conceptual Expressionism. Those who follow the Realist Aesthetic deem the artist's skill in rendering the illusion of visual reality to be most important. Formalism places the skill or the artist's success in composing the abstract elements of art above everything else. Emotionalism or Expressionism follows the Romantic notion of the artist's expression of feelings or emotions above all else. Narrative/Conceptual Expressionism places the ability to successfully convey an idea or story as the most important. Most critics, artists, and art-lovers straddle more than one of these aesthetics.

The abstract painter, Sean Scully, suggested that there are more important subjects to make art about than his personal emotions. I quite agree. As John suggests... different artists and different works of art have different goals. One is not inherently superior to another.

And as much as we dislike talking about money being a means of appreciating a work of art (and let’s not go there because we discussed this subject previously quite a bit...), I’d have to say that if Starry Night were to be auctioned it would probably fetch $500M or so. The Scream (the least successful of the three) already fetched $120M (I think) and Bouguereau would probably go for no more than $20-25M or so.

Price does not measure artistic merit for the most part. I agree that Starry Night would likely fetch well over a couple hundred million... but what is the reason for that? In part, it is due to our culture's obsession with the cult of personality. Van Gogh has a great tragic story. Starry Night is also famous. Far more so than Bouguereau. But what about the Mona Lisa? This painting... which isn't even undoubtedly by Leonardo... sold for nearly $500 million:

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How much would this go for?

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The monetary value of a work of art owes much to the fame of the artist and the artwork. It also has much to do with supply and demand. There are few top-tier Renaissance or Baroque paintings available but there are quite a few Impressionist, Post-Impressionist, and Modernist works still in private hands resulting in an increased demand. We might remember that Klimt's Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer... a work exhibiting unquestionable skill... was the most expensive work of art for a period of time:

portrait-of-adele-bloch-bauer-i.med.jpg


I have little doubt that this... currently the most reproduced work of art in the world... would likely surpass the price of the Bloch-Bauer and the Leonardo... especially with oil-rich Middle Eastern governments involved in the auctions:

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But honestly, I think it is a mistake to limit the discussion of skill to skill in rendering the illusion of visual (photographic) realism. This painting is the result of the exquisite skill:

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The same is true of Van Gogh. His skill in the use of color harmonies and his sensitivity of brushwork is different from that of Bouguereau... but in no way inferior.




 
Excuse me while I take a slight detour back to the OP...

It’s funny that I happen to be reading “Ninth Street Women” right now, and there was a bunch of stuff about Kline. Everyone (the Ab-Ex crowd) sniped at each other but Kline managed to escape their criticism. He was considered “the best among them, the warmest, the funniest...” His life was filled with pain (father’s suicide, an orphanage, the war, artistic poverty, his wife’s schizophrenia) and yet, he kept smiling. He was described as a “sad clown.” But I don’t know...do you see any of THAT (the stuff of his “soul”) in his work?

While his wife spent 6 months institutionalized, he “obsessively” starting drawing her empty rocking chair. This is one of the stories in the book. He was good friends with the deKoonings and one night, Elaine took one of his chair drawings and projected it onto their wall. (They were all mucking around with a Bell-Opticon.) He had never thought about doing black and white paintings before until he saw how his drawing “loomed in gigantic black strokes.” So...did the thing he become most famous for, spring out of his guts or out of his head? Self expression or collaborative idea?

Anyway, I also happen to like Kline’s work because it shows power and passion and as one quote said, “it was as solid as a steel girder and as lyrical as a poem dashed off with a quill pen and India ink.” But then I wonder...does the power come from its massive size and does the passion come from the gestural quality? I have to believe that we can also find power in small and even invisible things and passion can also build slowly and deliberately. Ahem.

Okay...carry on soldiers.

I’m off to read my (very good, btw) “little lady painter book.” I’m only about 200 pages in with another 600 to go! Geesh. Good thing I have nowhere else to go and nothing else to do these days...
 
Anyway, I also happen to like Kline’s work because it shows power and passion and as one quote said, “it was as solid as a steel girder and as lyrical as a poem dashed off with a quill pen and India ink.” But then I wonder...does the power come from its massive size and does the passion come from the gestural quality?

And does the impact come from the somber black? The color of death? But then white is the color of death to the Japanese... so is our impact to a work of art the result of our prior knowledge and experience... including our cultural upbringing? If we return to Van Gogh I have to wonder about my response to a painting like this:

VanGogh.wheatfield.2.700.jpg


I suspect my response to this might be far less angst-laden... far less tortured... if I were not aware of Van Gogh's tragic life story.
 
SLG and Olive, great!!! Thanks a ton for your input.
If anyone else is still interested in this thread, I’d suggest to go back to “Why do I admire this?”. We veered off, but we can go back.
 
Before we go back there, a few words about art and money: Evidence suggests that the Saudi guy who “bought” that questionable “Salvator Mundi” has not paid for it in full. He is apparently in default on the installments Christie’s allowed him. As for Vermeer, his work stolen from the Gardiner “The concert” is still hidden somewhere on this planet (in Putin’s palace near Sochi?!?....😆😆). Crazy stuff, 30 years after the heist. It will never be for sale, even if Ken Griffin (who paid $300M for de Kooning’s Interchange) stood on all his sixes.

 
And Arty, everyone else seems to be able upload images using the icon here above. Except me...(and Laf..?...) 😒😒. I have to use the “Attach files” gizmo and the results are quite miserable. Is it because I use my IPhone 11?? Do I have to go back to using IBM mainframe computer from the 1960’s for it to work??....
Here is what I get:

As one can see the icons at the top are all faded, not functional.
 

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And Arty, everyone else seems to be able upload images using the icon here above. Except me...(and Laf..?...) 😒😒. I have to use the “Attach files” gizmo and the results are quite miserable. Is it because I use my IPhone 11?? Do I have to go back to using IBM mainframe computer from the 1960’s for it to work??....
Here is what I get:

As one can see the icons at the top are all faded, not functional.

Oh, this was happening to me too; my icons were all faded, but I solved the problem by clicking on the Toggle BB code button top right that looks like this: [ ]. Now everything is back to normal.
 
Nufocus, Hermes has the fix for that. Whenever you run into a glitch, please post it in the Technical Forum so we can address it. I hope it's working better for you.
 
I love Kline. From my understanding, his use of black (and some of his compositions) come from the environment he grew up in around Bethlehem Steel in Pennsylvania. My father grew up there too, which might be one of the reasons I feel akin to his work.

So I'm posting something from Amy Sillman, an American abstract artist I have obsessively talked about before. I have tried to capture her sense of composition before, but of course, I can't. I love this one, which is her elephant painting. I love how she can combine a sense of playful realism, yet be completely abstract. It isn't fair how she is able to do it.

Elephant_2005.jpg
 
There is no rule says you can't spill your guts while being technically excellent. As a rule, I've found that all too often, people who deride technique don't have any.
 
I suspect my response to this might be far less angst-laden... far less tortured... if I were not aware of Van Gogh's tragic life story.

that painting was how he felt


how it makes you feel


I feel it unhinging my mind
 
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