Sun and moon
- Thread starter Perry
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Enyaw
old man
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I have no idea why you would think that. I am smart though. Anyway, what I said was that in your lines I see a very nice composition but when I see your lines my mind is filling in values and so I am seeing a composition based on the values that my artistic eye is making me see. Once you fill it with your values and color I no longer see where it could go. I only see where it went. A composition needs hue and value to strengthen or weaken it.
Your shapes suggest values but we all see differently. I was only trying to help. What I meant was you nailed it with your shapes but lost it in the translation. There is no other way for me to explain it and if you think I am being a smart ass, let me know and I can avoid your threads. If I hurt your feelings any I do apologize.
Perry
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You don't hurt my feelings.
Quote. "Anyway, what I said was that in your lines I see a very nice composition but when I see your lines my mind is filling in values and so I am seeing a composition based on the values that my artistic eye is making me see. Once you fill it with your values and color I no longer see where it could go. I only see where it went. A composition needs hue and value to strengthen or weaken it."
This is not what you first said. This I understand. I'm sorry but I didn't know what the hell you were talking about before.
I don't think you're a smart ass........now
.
Quote. "Anyway, what I said was that in your lines I see a very nice composition but when I see your lines my mind is filling in values and so I am seeing a composition based on the values that my artistic eye is making me see. Once you fill it with your values and color I no longer see where it could go. I only see where it went. A composition needs hue and value to strengthen or weaken it."
This is not what you first said. This I understand. I'm sorry but I didn't know what the hell you were talking about before.
I don't think you're a smart ass........now
.
Hermes2020
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Perry, in my opinion, what you are doing is incredibly valuable. I believe that experimentation is the best way to develop; you obviously want to progress and you have a curious mind. When you do these experiments, it is good to share them with us for our edification. but we shouldn't forget that their primary goal is not necessarily to produce aesthetically pleasing finished works of art. It's an old, but true, saying: there are no failed experiments — in some ways the experiments from which we learn the most are the ones that don't give expected outcomes.
Hawkmoth
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Perry, I agree with Hermes2020, this kind of experimentation to me is a sign of a truly artistic mind. You are trying things out in real practice (rather than just theory), and reflecting on the results to develop your own sense of composition, colour etc. Feedback from others is really helpful with this kind of thing but actually I'm most interested to hear what you think of it yourself. If you do rework it, I'd certainly be interested to see the changes as I feel I'm learning something here too!
For what it's worth, to my eyes I find it mostly pleasing but the irregular darkest grey shape 'jars' with the more formal shapes and brighter colours of the sun area right next to it (it jumps forward, too dominant). I think I might have preferred the lighter grey there in the middle and the darkest grey on the edge. Others may perceive it completely differently though.
For what it's worth, to my eyes I find it mostly pleasing but the irregular darkest grey shape 'jars' with the more formal shapes and brighter colours of the sun area right next to it (it jumps forward, too dominant). I think I might have preferred the lighter grey there in the middle and the darkest grey on the edge. Others may perceive it completely differently though.
Perry
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Thanks Hermes and Hawkmoth
I've read and listened to many people on the subject of composition
and I assume a lot of people here have also. It can be very difficult
to organize your thoughts when there is so much to consider in a composition.
When you look at all of the guidelines for a comp I wonder if they are all of equal importance
or are some more important than others.
My approach to this was to see how many guideline boxes I could check off.
I don't know all of the guidelines and some of them I might
not understand correctly.
Number 1: Have a center of interest so that the eye has a place to start and go back to later
(later may be just a matter of a second or two.
The sun and the area around it is my center of interest. checkmark
Number 2: The center of interest should have the most contrast, checkmark
Number 3 Don't put the center of interest in the middle of the page. checkmark
Number 4: There should be balance. For me it is when I look at my painting and
say "It needs something over here" or "I need more color over there".
When Donna said that I needed some more blue somewhere else, I think that was for balance.
When Hawk talked about the greys being switched I think that was for balance sake.
I think they were both right, so no checkmark here.
Number 5: Harmony and diversity. I think harmony would be the repeating of something.
Maybe ellipses or tree shapes or squares. Too much harmony and it becomes monotonous
and that's where diversity comes in, to keep it interesting.
I guess I could have harmony in all the shapes being outlined but then I agree with hawk
that the irregular shape kills the harmony of shapes. No checkmark
I guess the only diversity I have is those 2 circles being different than the other shapes.
Maybe checkmark, not sure.
Number 6: The viewers eyes should not leave the page. I think I'm OK with that, checkmark
Number 7: The viewers eye should move around the page. I think I'm OK there also, checkmark
I guess colors and values could affect harmony, balance, center of interest and movement around the page.
Is may painting interesting to other people? I have no control over that.
I'm sure there are people here who have more knowledge about composition
than I do. I would like to hear your thoughts.
I've read and listened to many people on the subject of composition
and I assume a lot of people here have also. It can be very difficult
to organize your thoughts when there is so much to consider in a composition.
When you look at all of the guidelines for a comp I wonder if they are all of equal importance
or are some more important than others.
My approach to this was to see how many guideline boxes I could check off.
I don't know all of the guidelines and some of them I might
not understand correctly.
Number 1: Have a center of interest so that the eye has a place to start and go back to later
(later may be just a matter of a second or two.
The sun and the area around it is my center of interest. checkmark
Number 2: The center of interest should have the most contrast, checkmark
Number 3 Don't put the center of interest in the middle of the page. checkmark
Number 4: There should be balance. For me it is when I look at my painting and
say "It needs something over here" or "I need more color over there".
When Donna said that I needed some more blue somewhere else, I think that was for balance.
When Hawk talked about the greys being switched I think that was for balance sake.
I think they were both right, so no checkmark here.
Number 5: Harmony and diversity. I think harmony would be the repeating of something.
Maybe ellipses or tree shapes or squares. Too much harmony and it becomes monotonous
and that's where diversity comes in, to keep it interesting.
I guess I could have harmony in all the shapes being outlined but then I agree with hawk
that the irregular shape kills the harmony of shapes. No checkmark
I guess the only diversity I have is those 2 circles being different than the other shapes.
Maybe checkmark, not sure.
Number 6: The viewers eyes should not leave the page. I think I'm OK with that, checkmark
Number 7: The viewers eye should move around the page. I think I'm OK there also, checkmark
I guess colors and values could affect harmony, balance, center of interest and movement around the page.
Is may painting interesting to other people? I have no control over that.
I'm sure there are people here who have more knowledge about composition
than I do. I would like to hear your thoughts.
Donna T
Contributing Member
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Your approach to all the guidelines makes a lot of sense, Perry. I agree with Hermes too in that we learn so much from these kinds of experiments. This got me thinking that it's so hard with abstract art to give our thoughts on another artists' work. When I mentioned that the blue area could be repeated I had no idea if your intention was to have that blue stand alone and make a statement. Maybe that was the backbone of your painting and repeating the blue would derail the whole thing! I think guidelines are good but at the same time your concept overrules all of them. If a painting is about imbalance then so be it. I would like more guidance in general on abstract painting but it seems that there is no right or wrong way, only your experience in making it and whether it pleases you or not.
Perry
Well-known member
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- 552
It wasn't my intention to let the blue stand. I agree with you totally. In fact I've already changed it.
Sometimes I'm afraid I might be analyzing things too much but that's just how my brain works I guess.
I'll let the painting sit for another day before I post it. Thanks for commenting.
.Sometimes I'm afraid I might be analyzing things too much but that's just how my brain works I guess.
I'll let the painting sit for another day before I post it. Thanks for commenting.
Desforges
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- 1,295
It is good to let something sit for a while. I do it with different paintings. Sometimes years after, I can tell exactly what could be improved.It wasn't my intention to let the blue stand. I agree with you totally. In fact I've already changed it
Sometimes I'm afraid I might be analyzing things too much but that's just how my brain works I guess.
I'll let the painting sit for another day before I post it. Thanks for commenting.
john
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I think it's cool. Center of interest for me is the dark gray shape. Interesting shape.
I don't know how any rules can or should be followed with abstracts. For every great abstract that follows one rule there is another that breaks it.
Where is the COI in this Kandinsky? How about a Pollock? Nevermind the color field paintings.
It does seem that spatial balance is important. Almost all famous abstracts except for perhaps some Mondrians seem balanced. I can't seem to find any that are all one side or stuck in one corner. But why not? Even that could be interesting.
I think that one just needs to do what looks right. The eye knows. You just have to trust it. I'm suspicious of all these composition rules. Just make something that looks one or more of these following things: Interesting, pretty, emotionally or intellectually moving. I think that covers it?
I should hasten to add that I'm not an abstract painter. I've done a few abstracted landscapes, but it's not really my thing. Maybe partly because it confuses me. I really should force myself to do a pure abstract. It seems I always make them into landscapes.
I don't know how any rules can or should be followed with abstracts. For every great abstract that follows one rule there is another that breaks it.
Where is the COI in this Kandinsky? How about a Pollock? Nevermind the color field paintings.
It does seem that spatial balance is important. Almost all famous abstracts except for perhaps some Mondrians seem balanced. I can't seem to find any that are all one side or stuck in one corner. But why not? Even that could be interesting.
I think that one just needs to do what looks right. The eye knows. You just have to trust it. I'm suspicious of all these composition rules. Just make something that looks one or more of these following things: Interesting, pretty, emotionally or intellectually moving. I think that covers it?
I should hasten to add that I'm not an abstract painter. I've done a few abstracted landscapes, but it's not really my thing. Maybe partly because it confuses me.
I really should force myself to do a pure abstract. It seems I always make them into landscapes.
Artyczar
Moderator
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My two cents is that 1. You're right, you can never control what someone else likes or sees in your work whether it's realism or abstract. And abstract is much more subjective than realism (obviously) because it can't be compared to the familiar. 2. But most people will try to see something representational in abstracts, like maybe a sun in this one, or stained glass here because of the bold outlines, yet this composition is good and balanced as an abstract. It is simple (in my opinion) and not as dynamic as say the Kandinsky you have posted.
You asked where the center of interest is on the Kandinsky, and I'd say it is left of center. I personally don't think there has to be one in abstract pieces. You bring up Pollock, and there might be one at times, somewhere, be it placed very subtly, but there may not be. I'm not a fan and don't like that my eye is all over the place with his work. I don't like his type of chaos. I don't like the "design" or aesthetic of his work. But I appreciate his language and his place in Art History.
The center of interest in yours feels also left of center, but also has a repeated circle right of center, so my eye jumps back and forth just a little bit, but the yellow one is more dominant of course.
I can draw about 50 abstract compositions before one that seems to "work." I'm totally self-taught, so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I've been looking at and studying abstract art for more than ...many decades. Since I was a kid. Almost obsessively. What I think works might be totally "wrong" to some academic art critic for all I know. I don't know "rules" though I've heard of some after the fact--after I've gone by intuition. It's hard to describe to someone else my opinions about their work, but I try to best I can in order to help them. Though, as you know it is all very subjective and a matter of taste. Purely.
If I say something is too literal (about an abstract), what would that mean? Maybe only I know what that means! That's what something might mean to me because I see a sun and sun rays. Someone else might see something else. It also depends on what you were going for to make a piece a success. If you want your viewer to see nothing at all representational, then that has to be worked on a little. Or maybe you don't mind it. Maybe it's inspired by those elements. It depends on your intentions.
Everyone will have differing opinions. It's your opinion that matters and other people can flitter off in the end.
You asked where the center of interest is on the Kandinsky, and I'd say it is left of center. I personally don't think there has to be one in abstract pieces. You bring up Pollock, and there might be one at times, somewhere, be it placed very subtly, but there may not be. I'm not a fan and don't like that my eye is all over the place with his work. I don't like his type of chaos. I don't like the "design" or aesthetic of his work. But I appreciate his language and his place in Art History.
The center of interest in yours feels also left of center, but also has a repeated circle right of center, so my eye jumps back and forth just a little bit, but the yellow one is more dominant of course.
I can draw about 50 abstract compositions before one that seems to "work." I'm totally self-taught, so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I've been looking at and studying abstract art for more than ...many decades. Since I was a kid. Almost obsessively. What I think works might be totally "wrong" to some academic art critic for all I know. I don't know "rules" though I've heard of some after the fact--after I've gone by intuition. It's hard to describe to someone else my opinions about their work, but I try to best I can in order to help them. Though, as you know it is all very subjective and a matter of taste. Purely.
If I say something is too literal (about an abstract), what would that mean? Maybe only I know what that means! That's what something might mean to me because I see a sun and sun rays. Someone else might see something else. It also depends on what you were going for to make a piece a success. If you want your viewer to see nothing at all representational, then that has to be worked on a little. Or maybe you don't mind it. Maybe it's inspired by those elements. It depends on your intentions.
Everyone will have differing opinions. It's your opinion that matters and other people can flitter off in the end.
