Can you use soft and oil pastels in a mixed media sketch book.

[16ga]

Is there any way to make soft pastel or oil pastel drawings in a normal mixed media sketchbook and not have them destroyed or making a mess?
I know at least a fixative would be needed but has anyone tried it and how did it go?
I'm just wondering if its even worth attempting?

 

[Terri]

I rarely use oil pastels in my sketchbook - it's a typical Canson XL mixed media type - mainly to avoid the mess from having to close pages over the OP's. On the few occasions I've tried it, I go for the hardest (usually meaning the cheapest student grade) I have, to minimize the effect from the weight squishing/smearing them.

I can't say I've used soft pastels in one, but that's mainly because it's not my favorite media. I do like soft pastel pencils and might give that a try, using the spray fix afterwards.

For "soft" pastel work, I really like Nupastel from Prismacolor, because they're so hard and glide nicely over paper. I've even used Nupastels as underpainting to oil pastels, with a fixative spray in between - but not in a sketchbook.

If you really want to work with them in your sketchbook, you could always use a fix spray, then lay a sheet of waxed paper between the pages. A bit sloppy and you'd need to be mindful when flipping through it later, but it would keep the pages and the sketches clean.

 

[ntl]

I've used oil pastels in my Canson 11x14 mixed media sketchbook. I insert a sheet of waxed paper to cover the OP'ed page. No problems with it. You could also try a coat of acrylic (matte) medium.

 

[16ga]

Thanks.
So instead of just laying a sheet of wax paper in it do you think it could work by attaching the wax paper to the opposite page?

 

[Terri]

Thanks.
So instead of just laying a sheet of wax paper in it do you think it could work by attaching the wax paper to the opposite page?

Sure! That would be easier than fiddling with a loose sheet between pages, assuming you don't want to use the opposite page.

You could also try a coat of acrylic (matte) medium.

I never thought of trying that. Will definitely keep that in mind: curious to see how well it seals op's.

 

[ntl]

Yes. I also wanted to say that neither the full sheet painting nor this smaller one with the acrylic layer had any bleed through, and they were done probably more that 5 years ago.
Yes, I did one. I was just starting to work with OPs and I wrote a couple of notes on the margins. I used the center of the page to make a drawing ~6x7".
I painted a black acrylic base first. (I've never painted on a black surface prior to this.) I used old OPs, and
and the next 2 or 3 layers were new OPs. I also used the margins to test the colors to see what the would do. When finished, I cut a waxed paper to cover the painted area, and had room at the top to tape it to.
For the full sheet picture, I did not tape the waxed paper to it.

I don't know anything about the soft pastels.
Good luck.

 

[ntl]

I didn't tape the WP for the full page on the opposite sheet. I felt the tape would interfere with the coil.
Terri, On the full page one, there were several areas I wanted to change or add color, and none of my OPs were gooey enough to add another layer. I had a bag of Holbein Acrylic Gel Medium HARD. I let the piece dry overnight or more ( that was a while back) then lightly brushed those areas with it and let it dry. Then I successfully added the new OPs on top of the Gel medium HARD. I can post a photo, but I don't remember where all I applied it.

 

[ntl]

I said "matte medium" in my first post. It was Holbein Acrylic Gel Medium HARD. There was a write-up several years ago at Wet Canvas, https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/topic/my-new-solution-for-layering-amp-fixing-oil-pastel/ and at re-reading it, will use it on the whole page to eliminate the waxed paper. Also mentioned is the use of milk to fix soft pastels. I had also read that Van Gogh used milk to fix charcoal drawings. I did try that once a year or so ago, on a scrap piece. Apparently he poured the milk over his work and let it dry. I put whole milk in a spray bottle and gave it 2 light sprayings. It seemed to work, but I didn't get violent with it, I just rubbed lightly with finger tip (not nail ) and the charcoal did not smear.
Dick Blick has the Gel Medium Hard now for $22.75

 

[JStarr]

I said "matte medium" in my first post. It was Holbein Acrylic Gel Medium HARD. There was a write-up several years ago at Wet Canvas, https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/topic/my-new-solution-for-layering-amp-fixing-oil-pastel/ and at re-reading it, will use it on the whole page to eliminate the waxed paper. Also mentioned is the use of milk to fix soft pastels. I had also read that Van Gogh used milk to fix charcoal drawings. I did try that once a year or so ago, on a scrap piece. Apparently he poured the milk over his work and let it dry. I put whole milk in a spray bottle and gave it 2 light sprayings. It seemed to work, but I didn't get violent with it, I just rubbed lightly with finger tip (not nail ) and the charcoal did not smear.
Dick Blick has the Gel Medium Hard now for $22.75

I understand completely why folks seek ways to protect the surface of their work- but I'd be worried using milk- that it would sour and then the work would smell. Not to mention milk has fat in it AND a sugar- I'd worry either of those would lead to discoloration.

I've not yet found any type of applied-fixitif that doesn't create yet another problem, so I just use glassine. It's relatively cheap, works, and can be used again.

If I am out, I use cheap-but-glossy wrapping paper- like from the Dollar Store at Christmas. Then I remind myself to order glassine.

 

[ntl]

Hi, JStarr, welcome! Thanks for stopping in.
I think it was whole milk I used, but there is often 2% milk here, too. I don't generally drink milk, and it was all that was in the fridge. Might have been 2%. For myself, I'm learning, and if I can do charcoal drawings and keep them a while without messing stuff around, I don't mind using a couple of spoons of milk to spray 2-3 light coats on even a large sheet.

Here's an article I found that you might be interested in checking out:
Using skim milk as a drawing fixative

Using Skim Milk as a Drawing Fixative — Ryan McJunkin

www.ryanmcjunkin.com

 

[Terri]

All interesting points. With variables, of course. I wonder about the differences between the milk of van Gogh's time and the highly processed, pasteurized products today.

Again, I tend to avoid using oil pastels in my scrapbook, just to keep the pages clean. Waxed paper, or better yet the glassine JStarr mentions, is also non-toxic and cheap.

 

[JStarr]

All interesting points. With variables, of course. I wonder about the differences between the milk of van Gogh's time and the highly processed, pasteurized products today.

Again, I tend to avoid using oil pastels in my scrapbook, just to keep the pages clean. Waxed paper, or better yet the glassine JStarr mentions, is also non-toxic and cheap.

Paper is likely different, too- not the same types of soft, squishy materials dissolved in carbolic acid and smoothed over a piece of silk.

I think sometimes we become somewhat enamored with what our fore-artists did because it seems somehow more "pure". But then I think, well, but lead white was a real thing and people died- as was cobalt blue. Rabbit-glue sizing sounds all well and good until it's you having to kill the rabbit and boil the appropriate parts up and then down to make said sizing. And a sable brush wasn't kidding- nor was a squirrel tail brush. Then I think of what Kitty Wallis said about her paper, "The Museum grade is archival to three hundred years. After that, it's the Archivist's problem."

Sounds about right.

 

[ntl]

Yes, these are all interesting points, and depending on an individual's situation and circumstances, none, some, or all may be factors in decision making, and prioritized differently. There's differences in about everything except maybe mass produced products.
" I wonder about the differences between the milk of van Gogh's time and the highly processed, pasteurized products today."
That's valid. And Van Gogh's farmers didn't add fertilizers and pesticides/herbicide's to their land which likely affects the milk. Raw milk is available though you may have to go to a health food store or your local organic dairy farmer.
As far as being archival, my work will never hang in a museum, and I don't sell it, so archivalness is not a concern for me. There are several members of this site who do produce for sale, who have works hanging in public areas, whose works are (to my eye) museum quality. Their decisions re methods and materials will likely be different from mine in part because their needs and goals are different.
I am learning about all of this. If I can keep some work--I don't use dusty pastels, but I do at times use graphite and charcoal--free of smears and smudges for a while by using a couple of light sprays of milk, I'm okay with that. If it starts to smell or deteriorate, I can toss them, no big deal. I'm sure a lot (all) of my work will be tossed sooner rather than later. and the Holbein Gel Hard for oil pastels and maybe watercolor, and maybe also for a longer lasting surface for charcoal and graphite after the milk spray stabilizes them.
I'm doing all of this--painting, drawing, with different materials and learning what I can--for enjoyment and to keep my Mind and brain active. It's a social thing, too, as I work with a small group when I can.

Progress is important, but there are people who do use the old methods and ways of doing things.

 

[ntl]

You might be interested in the thread Soft pastel help needed https://creativespark.art/threads/soft-pastel-help-needed.5465/ where Bart (post 2) talks about " the Spectrafix line, starting with their Degas products and their newer Natural Glass. These are different because they are casein (milk protein) based and water soluble, unlike all the other brands. They are best used in several light mists (not sprayings). And once you have stabilized the hell out of the painting using them, you'll know because you can't readily wipe pastel onto your finger anymore"

So. for beginners like me, I think milk in a spray bottle is an economical way to preserve some work for a while, anyway.

​

 

[16ga]

If I decide to use them in a sketchbook I'll probably go with a store bought sealer. but its starting to sound like its more hassle then I want.

 

[JStarr]

I can agree with everything said; to each their own, as in most art topics.

Casein is an odd little protein- it's the part of milk that helps it make cheese, and it does so because it joins, not in a strand, but more of a lattice. Which is why it can be effective as a fix- it more easily coats a surface under a "netting" like layer. (*shrug* I took a lot of science).

I solve the fixitif issue by never using the stuff. I do the work, protect it with glassine, and frame it under glass in a tight package. Doesn't matter what the medium is, I protect its surface until it is framed. (of course, I use dry media, not wet so it works for me).

PS: A piece of art doesn't have to hang in a museum- or even a gallery- to be cherished and kept by someone who loves the piece.

 

[ZenDruid]

Rabbit-glue sizing sounds all well and good until it's you having to kill the rabbit and boil the appropriate parts up and then down to make said sizing.

LMAO. No, the artist today no longer has to kill the rabbit. Do a quick google search and find all kinds of readily available bottles of rabbit glue, fish glue and hide glue for about $10USD. They're used by artists for sizing canvas, gold leafing, by luthiers for assembling guitars, violins, etc. The prestigious Taylor Guitar Company uses hide glue for their instruments because it dries strong and hard, but can be softened with heat and steam to disassemble for repairs and then put back together. If you want to try making your own (I did) go to the pet store and buy one of the raw-hide chewy toys and boil it in a pot of water until you get a creamy beige slurry. That's hide glue. Apply it with a brush. It will stick your fingers and other things together.

 

[JStarr]

LMAO. No, the artist today no longer has to kill the rabbit. Do a quick google search and find all kinds of readily available bottles of rabbit glue, fish glue and hide glue for about $10USD. They're used by artists for sizing canvas, gold leafing, by luthiers for assembling guitars, violins, etc. The prestigious Taylor Guitar Company uses hide glue for their instruments because it dries strong and hard, but can be softened with heat and steam to disassemble for repairs and then put back together. If you want to try making your own (I did) go to the pet store and buy one of the raw-hide chewy toys and boil it in a pot of water until you get a creamy beige slurry. That's hide glue. Apply it with a brush. It will stick your fingers and other things together.

Thing is, there are folks who consider themselves purists in whatever their chosen thing is, but they inexplicably pick and choose what they want to be purist about.

I knew a woman in Puget Sound who made her own oil paints- she felt it helped her as an artist to follow in the footsteps of the Masters yada-yada- but, again, she inexplicably forgot to do the other crap the Masters did- making and repairing brushes, grinding pigments- some of them toxic- purifying their oils from walnuts or linseed- and, yes, making rabbit glue.

From my very favorite author, ever, Sir Terry Pratchett, sums up the idea of "purists and enthusists" in another way:

"And the major was, indeed, not a fool, even though he looked
like one. He was idealistic, and thought of his men as 'jolly good
chaps' despite the occasional evidence to the contrary, and on
the whole did the best he could with the moderate intelligence at
his disposal. When he was a boy he'd read books about great
military campaigns, and visited the museums and looked with
patriotic pride at the paintings of famous cavalry charges, last
stands and glorious victories. It had come as rather a shock,
when he later began to participate in some of these, to find that
the painters had unaccountably left out the intestines. Perhaps
they just weren't very good at them."

 

[kenny91]

To further protect your pastel drawings from smudging, you can place a sheet of glassine or parchment paper over the completed page before closing the sketchbook. This provides a protective layer between pages, minimizing the chance of smudging. If you're concerned about potential smudging, you can also insert a sheet of tracing paper or wax paper between completed pages.

 

[JennieJo]

Is there any way to make soft pastel or oil pastel drawings in a normal mixed media sketchbook and not have them destroyed or making a mess?
I know at least a fixative would be needed but has anyone tried it and how did it go?
I'm just wondering if its even worth attempting?

I have an oil pastel sketchbook., just for me To separate the pages, and because I'm a recycler, I use pages from magazines and advertising and the use archive tape to interleave the pages. Makes me smile as I turn the pages.