Where's the "Art"?

[joe1It]

hi , E.J.H .
I did not remember the name of the program, I think it is the same, the program I read was called Civilizations, art over time. Is appearance what we see, or what we have learned to see? This is the question that accompanies three of the most important British historians - Simon Schama, Mary Beard and David Olusoga - in the episode of "Civilizations, art over time" - on air ......... this was an episode, yes, they were more aimed at history of African, Asian, American and European cultures, copy and paste. the series tells the birth and development of human creativity, but also how civilizations around the world have influenced each other and how, in art, the human form and the natural world have been represented. here it is not written who was the producer, but, yes it was from the bbc, Beautiful series.
maybe I also saw another BBC program, I think, about a museum, presented, with Simon Chama

 

[john]

If you want to know what art is, ask the children. They will talk about the fun of making something, creating, thinking, dreaming. Having fun. They don't talk about purpose, popularity, or perfection.

We can all remember those wonderful pieces of art that we made when we were kids. It was amazing to make something that wasn't there before. From our own minds to the paper or clay came this thing. We had never done anything like that before. Instead of playing with the toys, we made the toys. How empowering that was. We added part of ourselves to the cultural mix of man made stuff out there. We planted our flag and a seed. Of course kids are too dumb to realize any of this at the time. Only the true primal reasons are in force and there is no fear. No expectations.

So maybe to figure out what art is we should ask the kids. They are dumb enough to know the truth.

 

[Maybenartist]

I've no idea what art is other than the beginning of everything that human beings create. The clothes I wear began with a drawing. The car I drive. The home I live in, art is the very foundation of life as we know it and then it becomes a way of documenting life. Personally, I'd rather create the stuff than define it.

 

[stlukesguild]

Personally, I think painting and sculpture and drawing are just as much craft forms as ceramics, fiber arts, architecture, etc... They become Art when recognized as such by an art audience: collectors, curators, art critics, art historians, artists, and art lovers. I sometimes suspect the negation of what are deemed "crafts" by painters, sculptors... and most of all, conceptual artists... has much to do with their own failings in terms of crafts. Again, I simply don't accept the notion that paintings and drawings and sculpture and prints immediately qualify as "Art" while works in other media do not.

 

[stlukesguild]

If you want to know what art is, ask the children. They will talk about the fun of making something, creating, thinking, dreaming. Having fun. They don't talk about purpose, popularity, or perfection.

As an art teacher to students from ages 5 to 15 I can tell you that kids most certainly are concerned (and talk about) perfection. They will rip up a drawing because it doesn't meet their idea of perfection... which in many cases means it doesn't look like my example. They don't understand that I don't expect or want their work to look like mine. Unlike some college professors I have known, I don't want "Mini Mes".

I do like your notion of turning to children for answers when it comes to art. Some years ago when I was working abstractly I found myself growing increasingly frustrated... regardless of the merits of the work. My walls were covered in reproductions of figurative painters and every day I went in to teach children who loved drawing and painting "things". I found myself thinking about how I first came to love art as a child... drawing "things": dinosaurs, comic book characters, people, dogs, etc... I found myself questioning my own artistic direction. My experiences in the classroom drawing for my students and looking at their work was a major influence on my return to figurative art. I'll even admit that my experience with drawing for kids with pastel and looking at their pastel works was likely an inspiration for my shift from oil paint to pastel... a more drawing-based means of painting.

In a similar vein, I found myself saddened a couple of years ago when I came upon the work of an artist friend from college. I remember her work in college which was inspired by the direct observation of nature. She made lovely drawings of plants and trees and flowers... even spending most rainy days or Winter days in the indoor sections of Botanical Gardens right across the street from our school. Now her drawings are Minimalist Conceptual works involving one or two or three lines that have no meaning to anyone not well-versed in contemporary art theory. It seemed to me (and perhaps I am projecting here) that she had traded her real artistic passions to fit into contemporary art theory.

 

[Bongo]

Personally, I think painting and sculpture and drawing are just as much craft forms as ceramics, fiber arts, architecture, etc... They become Art when recognized as such by an art audience: collectors, curators, art critics, art historians, artists, and art lovers. I sometimes suspect the negation of what are deemed "crafts" by painters, sculptors... and most of all, conceptual artists... has much to do with their own failings in terms of crafts. Again, I simply don't accept the notion that paintings and drawings and sculpture and prints immediately qualify as "Art" while works in other media do not.

>A quilt hung on a wall in a gallery. Is Art. If it's used as a nightly bed covering then thrown in the washer twice a month - it's not.

>A goblet could be Art. If it's used 3 times a year in a toast-- still Art. If you guzzle Wild Turkey from it every night as you watch Gilligan's Island re-runs then toss in the dish washer. It's not.

Basically if you put an object on a pedestal and admire it for it's esthetic quality rather than use it as a dirt bike - it's Art.

Art imo is not some sacred badge of excellence - but (dare I say it one more time) an object that has no utility other than consideration for aesthetic qualities. I could of said "not used for utility." or some other formulation but I wanted to be emphatic and avoid the " so when the goblet is in the cupboard - it's art, when you use it -its not, when you put it back in the cupboard it becomes art again yada yada yada.

 

[Iain]

I've no idea what art is (...) Personally, I'd rather create the stuff than define it.

Amen to that, brother. The philosophers can define it. Good luck with that. It is defined in the doing. There is, I believe, as many potential definitions of art as there are individuals. Now wouldn't that be a crazy, chaotic world.

Disclaimer: allnighter.

 

[Bongo]

Amen to that, brother. The philosophers can define it. Good luck with that. It is defined in the doing. There is, I believe, as many potential definitions of art as there are individuals. Now wouldn't that be a crazy, chaotic world.

Disclaimer: allnighter.

I can multi-task so I can make art and talk about art sequentially. The thing is even though what I make fulfills my definition of Art -I never call it that. I make paintings. I'm a painter. Because the word Art and Artist have been so miss-appropriate,, twisted folded and mutilated, it is devoid of consistent or coherent meaning.

For me the definition of art is a thought experiment, and not to be rigorously applied in the real world( if there is still a real world).

 

[Iain]

Hey, I was just giving my two-peneths worth, not making a judgement on anyone else's. If your work fills your criteria of art, why worry, it is not like the wider world can be banged into shape. Thumbs up from aftermath of a disaster

 

[Nufocus]

Well said, Bongo!! Exactly the same thing applies to politicians!!!

 

[Nufocus]

Well said, Bongo!! Exactly the same thing applies to politicians!!!

Basically if you put an object on a pedestal and admire it for it's esthetic quality rather than use it as a dirt bike - it's Art.

 

[Artyczar]

I sometimes suspect the negation of what are deemed "crafts" by painters, sculptors... and most of all, conceptual artists... has much to do with their own failings in terms of crafts.

Like everything else we all have, this is opinion. And as you've suggested before, "some opinions are better than others." I would never agree that "failings" have anything to do with it because that is entirely unknown by you or anyone. How could you possibly know what a conceptual artist is capable of in terms of crafts? Plus, these are two totally different things. I guess that's what we are speaking about.

 

[stlukesguild]

Well said, Bongo!! Exactly the same thing applies to politicians!!!

I'm all for mounting a good many of them on the wall.

 

[stlukesguild]

Remember, Arty, a good many conceptual artists and art theorists/critics who championed conceptual art did so by dismissing "mere" craft as if it were just mindless motor skill.

 

[stlukesguild]

I make paintings. I'm a painter. Because the word Art and Artist have been so miss-appropriate,, twisted folded and mutilated, it is devoid of consistent or coherent meaning...

Unfortunately, the same is true of "painting" and "painter" albeit to a lesser extent. I can't count the number of times I've gone into a restaurant for lunch or to the bank wearing my paint-spattered studio pants and someone asks, "Oh, are you a painter?" When I reply in the affirmative they inevitably ask if I'm painting houses or a commercial building nearby. I love watching their expressions when I reply, "Nah! I'm painting naked women."

 

[E.J.H.]

Remember, Arty, a good many conceptual artists and art theorists/critics who championed conceptual art did so by dismissing "mere" craft as if it were just mindless motor skill.

In general I am weary of people that need to put others down to demonstrate their own merit.

 

[stlukesguild]

Basically if you put an object on a pedestal and admire it for it's esthetic quality rather than use it as a dirt bike - it's Art.

Now isn't that what I said some time ago? If a given object is deemed Art by collectors, artists, historian, critics and placed within a collection, a museum, a gallery... placed upon a pedestal... then it becomes art.

 

[stlukesguild]

In general I am weary of people that need to put others down to demonstrate their own merit.

I think this happens a lot in art. There is an assumption that you need to dismiss the old to make way for the new. Even as far back as the Renaissance, Vasari needed to dismiss the art of the Middle Ages (the very term "Gothic" meant "Goth-like" or Barbaric.) Clement Greenberg famously declared that he felt Edward Hopper should not even be categorized as an artist but rather as some sort of debased form of literature. This is because he had to admit to the formal strength of his work but it didn't fit into his theory of the inevitable progress of art toward abstraction.

 

[Claude J Greengrass]

Art: A friend of mine in Tulsa, Oklahoma, when I was about eleven years old. I'd be interested to hear from him. There are so many pseudos around taking his name in vain. -- The Hipcrime Vocab by Chad C. Mulligan from the dystopian book 'Stand on Zanzibar' by John Brunner

 

[E.J.H.]

Hm, hadn't come across that writer, a quick websearch gives the impression it might be an intersting read...