What Are You Listening To?

[brianvds]

Haydn's concertos? Honestly, I haven't listened much to these which have regularly been dismissed in comparison to Mozart's.

As I recall, they were written when he was still young, and they are decidedly not on the same level as those of Mozart, but I find them quite delightful, with all that trademark Haydn wit and sparkle. This bit is fairly well known:

Two of the biggest losses in music IMO is the fact that Mozart never composed any violin concertos after his 5th... composed in his early 20s... and Beethoven never wrote any more piano concertos after his hearing began to fail.

One can only wonder what a late-period piano concerto might have sounded like...
Over on the classical music board (does it still exist? I haven't been there in ages) there was a game of "pieces you wish were written." Such a late concerto would indeed be one, and more concertos by Mozart. Perhaps cello concertos by both Beethoven and Mozart? A piano concerto by Schubert? A guitar concerto/chamber music by Mozart? (He died just before the instrument became popular in Vienna).

Bach preferred the female vocalists as well. And the female sopranos were common with German composers for secular music. Unfortunately, Bach was employed in small provincial churches. There are letters in which he speaks enviously of the access to brilliant orchestras and female soloists in the more sophisticated courts of Brandenburg etc... At least he wasn't forced to use the Castrati ala the courts in Italy and England. The French liked their women too much and never went down that path... and the Lutheran Germans thought the castrati were simply "unnatural".

Which is an understatement, compared to how people would react today to some or other society doing that to kids, and one has to wonder how good their voices even were, by modern standards - apparently the one recording of castrato doesn't impress much, and he sounds like a wailing cat.

I actually have a recording of Handel's Messiah on Naxos performed with choir boys which is pretty damn good.

The better boy singers are often technically perfectly capable of singing parts written for women, but as I noted, at least to my ears it seldom works well. I have a recording of Mahler's fourth symphony with boy soprano instead of female, and this particular one works surprisingly well. But it is something of an exception.

I notice that recordings of Bach's B minor mass with boy soloists are either not available or very rare, and I'm going to guess he intended female singers for that particular work. Not too sure.

Bach always has this reputation as the dour old religious composer that matches this well-known portrait:

That portrait has become something of a poster boy for just how dour and stuffy classical music is supposed to be. Apart from the expression, the wigs and dandy clothing doesn't really help either.

But yes, Bach was not really like that as a person at all. He was even thrown in prison once, and as I recall, in his youth he was not above brawling. He seems to have enjoyed traveling whenever he got the chance, and was very involved in Europe's musical life. No doubt he smacked choir boys on the head only when it was really necessary.

 

[stlukesguild]

One can only wonder what a late-period piano concerto might have sounded like...

We might have some idea from the late string quartets and the late piano sonatas... but of course, a concerto is a different beast altogether. I think it was Beethoven who spoke of the string quartet as a more democratic musical form in which we have a group of four individuals engaged in musical conversation. A concerto is more aristocratic or "elitist" in that it is a musical form with a virtuoso soloist talking over an orchestra.

Over on the classical music board (does it still exist? I haven't been there in ages) there was a game of "pieces you wish were written." Such a late concerto would indeed be one, and more concertos by Mozart. Perhaps cello concertos by both Beethoven and Mozart? A piano concerto by Schubert? A guitar concerto/chamber music by Mozart? (He died just before the instrument became popular in Vienna).

It's still there... but it seems as if it's just the same conversations now expanded to years and years of responses. It's either that or you have one or two individuals playing these games of "best of". What are the "best symphonies", the "best quartets", the "best works by 20th-century composers", the "best contemporary composers". Yet these all have arcane rules made by the poster. You can only nominate 1 work a day. You can't select works by Richard Strauss or Puccini, or Korngold, or Bernstein, or even early Stravinsky for "best works by 20th-Century composers" because these composers don't fit the poster's idea of a "20th-Century Composer". In other words... "what do you think are the best works of a given era or genre among the works that I like."

I don't know about a piano concerto by Schubert. Schubert had little formal training and was far from being a virtuoso on the piano. He was far better versed in the violin. His operas all contain brilliant moments but aren't all that good as a whole. He seems to fit the old adage about Wagner far more than Wagner did. I'm amazed his symphonies are as good as they are... especially 5, 8 & 9. I'd like to hear more works in a variety of genre when it comes to Mozart: violin concertos, piano concertos, clarinet concertos, symphonies, choral works, trios, quartets, quintets, and definites operas, concert arias... and maybe orchestral songs. With Schubert I think his best work, had he lived longer, would be found among his symphonies, poetic works for solo piano like the Impromptus (that point toward Schumann and Chopin) and the lieder. I can only imagine further song-cycles... maybe an orchestral song-cycle.

Which is an understatement, compared to how people would react today to some or other society doing that to kids, and one has to wonder how good their voices even were, by modern standards - apparently the one recording of castrato doesn't impress much, and he sounds like a wailing cat.

The closest we can likely get are the countertenors... that I actually like a good bit. We may not be living in one of the great eras for sopranos and tenors compared to the 40s 50s 60s 70s and a bit beyond. But we are in the midst of a real Renaissance of the countertenors thanks to the revival of Baroque opera.

The better boy singers are often technically perfectly capable of singing parts written for women, but as I noted, at least to my ears it seldom works well.

The choir boys work well enough for the choral roles... but not so well as a soloist. A talented adult soprano simply has a more powerful which feels like it comes from deeper down. There is also a greater sensuality. You also need to wonder based upon the limit experience of a teenager, whether they can come near to matching the emotions of the more mature woman.

I notice that recordings of Bach's B minor mass with boy soloists are either not available or very rare, and I'm going to guess he intended female singers for that particular work. Not too sure.

Considering that it was written for a Catholic patron I'm going to guess that you are correct as to his use of female soloists.

 

[Hermes2020]

I thought Anthony Roth Costanzo was perfect in the Met production of Akhnaten, but then I like a lot of things Philip Glass has composed.

 

[stlukesguild]

As any given Sunday, I'm listening to at least something by Bach. Today it's been 3 discs. First it was the Partitas performed by Murray Perahia:

After that, I discovered this box set of Bach's keyboard work performed bt Andras Schiff:

I listened to the first 2 discs which included:

15 Inventions
15 3-Part Inventions
4 Duets
Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue
English Suites

That might be another reason that Classical Music has a reputation for stodginess: catchy titles!

 

[brianvds]

The choir boys work well enough for the choral roles... but not so well as a soloist. A talented adult soprano simply has a more powerful which feels like it comes from deeper down. There is also a greater sensuality. You also need to wonder based upon the limit experience of a teenager, whether they can come near to matching the emotions of the more mature woman.

I find that their voices, whether in chorus or solo, work superbly when you want a quality of purity and innocence, which is why they work so well in, for example, Renaissance church music. And they're not as shrill as those ghastly female opera stars.

Speaking of young musicians, YouTube recommended this to me:

Quite a talented young man, though I'm still in the process of trying to acquire a taste for Nielsen. I can't quite work out what I think of his work, or what he was on about - all manner of beautiful moments, but the whole at least initially comes across as sort of rambling and formless.

 

[stlukesguild]

I'm not as much into Nielsen as Sibelius or other symphonic composers of the period... but then, to be honest, I haven't listened enough to have a fair opinion.

Right now I'm listening to the "American Classical Music": Jazz. Maybe I'll never get Brian around to enjoying Wagner... or opera... but I think he could come to appreciate jazz. Small ensembles, such as that in this Oscar Peterson/Stéphane Grappelli are seriously not far from the small ensembles of classical music. And the improvisation of the performance is quite akin to the manner in which the Baroque and even Classical composers often performed. I would add, that if you can appreciate Ravel's Piano Concerto, Gershwin, Copland, Bernstein, Milhaud and others, you can certainly come to appreciate jazz:

Following this lovely performance by Peterson and Grappelli, I'm listening to one of my favorite jazz discs (actually two discs):

Birk's Works ("Birk" was Gillespie's nickname) is one of the finest "big band" recordings IMO... fueled by the muscularity of Bop. It is a sheer joy to listen to... and I often did while painting.

 

[Iain]

I do love Ella, Dinah, Sarah Vaughan, Bessie Smith. The Great American Songbook. I am most into lyrics and phraseology, I guess they'd call it. Music alone doesn't do it for me, mainly. I thought Winehouse did a good job with Washington's song, and visually she is compelling here, too. Shame she got lost. She always seemed to be on the front page of the London Metro newspaper. Fucking hacks. I would occasionally have a hair-of-the-dog in the Rayners public house where she debuted. Sundays were brutal, don't talk about the Monday...

 

[stlukesguild]

I do love Ella, Dinah, Sarah Vaughan, Bessie Smith. The Great American Songbook. I am most into lyrics and phraseology...

That would seem to match your placing narrative or the story at the center of your art. I live in a virtual library... but when I comes to visual art I place the visual above everything else. When it comes to music, I can go either way. I love songs, lieder, choral music, opera, etc... where the voice and lyrics play a role.

 

[Iain]

I thought I placed the visual first. My socalled serious work has no meaning beyond the visual, other than as an object. But maybe this is what you mean. Whatever. Thanks. You have given me food for thought. Maybe you could do me another favour and model your sublime subjects with Winehousian facial features somewhat like the above clip. Just a suggestion Now I must definitely get that drink. Wish I could enjoy your breadth of musical taste, and in the visual sphere, for that matter. I am too much the spoiled child of our time.

 

[brianvds]

I'm not as much into Nielsen as Sibelius or other symphonic composers of the period... but then, to be honest, I haven't listened enough to have a fair opinion.

I find I greatly prefer Sibelius' early works to his later ones. He'd probably turn in his grave hearing me say that.
Also, I found I very much like his (rather lesser known) music for solo piano.

Right now I'm listening to the "American Classical Music": Jazz. Maybe I'll never get Brian around to enjoying Wagner... or opera... but I think he could come to appreciate jazz. Small ensembles, such as that in this Oscar Peterson/Stéphane Grappelli are seriously not far from the small ensembles of classical music. And the improvisation of the performance is quite akin to the manner in which the Baroque and even Classical composers often performed. I would add, that if you can appreciate Ravel's Piano Concerto, Gershwin, Copland, Bernstein, Milhaud and others, you can certainly come to appreciate jazz:

Well, at least I respect both jazz and Wagner, but I do think I'd probably indeed acquire a taste for jazz before I do for Wagner. I think part of my problem with jazz is that I am in the same position with it as people who want to dip into classical: I don't really know where to start, or how to place musicians into an overall historical structure.

In classical music, we have a nice little historical arch - medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, etc, and it can be useful for beginners to use it as a sort of map to what they are listening to. With jazz I don't have that.

I have heard some that I did enjoy. Some twenty years ago there was a movie titled Albino Alligator, a thriller set in its entirety in a nightclub. The sound track featured some marvelously atmospheric jazz. And I rather liked Claude Bolling's classical/jazz mashups. Also some of the composers you point out, particularly Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue and American in Paris. Milhaud I don[t know well - I have been intending to explore his work a bit. Last but not least, I like Matisse's jazz series.

So perhaps getting into jazz is a nice little project to work on - I listen to music while doing art anyway.

 

[stlukesguild]

Iain; perhaps I mistook you for another member who stated that the story/narrative was the most important element of his/her art. AS my students would say, "My Bad."

 

[brianvds]

Specially for StLukes' benefit:

Beethoven's violin concerto arranged for clarinet! I have not listened right through, but dipped into it here and there, and I actually rather like it; the clarinet arrangement works better for this than the one for flute that I heard the other day, perhaps because of all the great violin concertos, Beethoven's is probably the mellowest.

 

[stlukesguild]

By the way... I would in no way be adverse to employing a portrait of Amy Winehouse within my paintings.

 

[brianvds]

By the way... I would in no way be adverse to employing a portrait of Amy Winehouse within my paintings.

I have long thought her surname rather ironic, considering the circumstances of her demise...

Perhaps you should do a group portrait of the entire 27 club (if there is enough room for them all in one of even your large paintings). But of course, you'll make them all voluptuous and nude.

 

[Desforges]

Dedicating this to today
My favourite version of this Bob Dylan’s song

 

[Iain]

My Cock up.

 

[Iain]

I have long thought her surname rather ironic

the irony...would be compounded if it had been the "house wine".:

 

[Iain]

I feel for Nellie

 

[laf.art]

Still laughing. Brilliant rendition,

 

[Iain]

Thanks laf - l am uplifted as if I performed it myself. That would clear the house, the street, the surrounding areas....all would evacuate (so to speak) in the interests of safety...