Unpopular Art Opinions

Let's see, Danny Elfman... bigtime rock star and scorer of films, married to Bridget Fonda, net worth of over fifty million... but, his hearing is shot. Certainly a bummer for a musician, but I can't play at all anymore (which I did for forty years) and bummer though it is, along with my lovely autoimmune disorder, which made it impossible for me to keep carving, I hardly consider it hell.

And that's it for this time, John. No further replies.

Didn't know Elfman had hearing problems. I see in Wikipedia it is ascribed to years of performing in rock bands. Wouldn't surprise me if virtually all rock musicians have hearing loss. In fact, even a classical orchestra is pretty loud, and I would suspect many classical musicians have the same trouble. It's kind of ironic that doing the thing you love can cause the exact kind of harm that will prevent you from doing it - perhaps time for the clavichord and lute to make a comeback.

Anyway. There was that Ludwig bloke, who apparently also had some trouble with his hearing, but he kept right on composing... :)
 
I think tracing... especially tracing master drawings... can be a good means of learning, but I do agree I would not use it as my primary means of drawing. Personally, I employ some tracing to quickly establish the proportions... which on a larger scale can take hours raising and lowering the working surface. In general, I'll spend 5 to 10 minutes rapidly tracing and establishing the proportions in a painting that will ultimately take 50, 100, maybe 200 hours to complete.

My take on copying from masters is that a lot of the benefit comes out of figuring out what decisions the artist made and going through the whole process. Tracing skips over a lot of major steps. But I can see how it's useful making for breaking down positive/negative shapes or mapping out the composition, and there's definitely something to be learned from that.
 
I think tracing can help the beginner... after they have already put in some time in gestures and some study of anatomy. It can help you understand how the masters employed a variety of thick and thin contours and cross-hatching to create the illusion of form and space and to create an emphasis. I definitely wouldn't suggest tracing an entire composition, and I definitely would use this judiciously along with gesture drawing, drawings emphasizing value, texture, negative space, employing a variety of tools, etc... For me, gesture is central when first learning to draw: 20, 30, 60 second drawings that force the student to focus upon what he or she sees with an emphasis on the compositional movement of the model or object(s) and the proportions.
 
I was thinking composition in terms of getting a broader overview, because I have seen that used as a method to break down how a composition works. Just outlines and basic shapes, nothing detailed. I'm unsure about the other things you mentioned, tracing is just not how I learned that stuff and no teacher ever used it as a teaching tool. But whatever works, I guess. 🤷‍♀️
 
I certainly wouldn't make tracing the primary... let alone the only way to learn some of the aspects of drawing. However, it does remove the need for the time being of focusing on proportion and similar aspects and allows the student to focus on purely abstract elements of line quality, etc... perhaps in a manner in which abstraction allows the painter to focus on color, and texture, and the other aspects of paint application without the need to focus on form, space, perspective, etc...

My own experience in art school involved 5 years of life drawing from observation with studies and practice in perspective, anatomy, physiology, etc... I also made a good many drawings on my own from observation copying paintings and sculpture at the museum across the street. I made several studies tracing old master drawings and these did make some things come clear to me. Still, I would not recommend tracing excessively or even working from photographs until you have a good deal of drawing from observation under your wing.
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with tracing for learning, even if you need it to get your painting to where it needs to be at times. I don't consider it cheating, unless you're tracing someone else's composition and calling it your own.
 
I didn't learn any anatomy or physiology in art school and don't see it as absolutely necessary. That might be an unpopular opinion with some! Not how thought about things when I entered school, but my initial assumption was also that I would major in illustration and they still did a requisite anatomy course at the time. I studied anatomy in high school on my own but personally I feel like observational methods pushed me a lot further.
 
I didn't learn any anatomy or physiology in art school and don't see it as absolutely necessary. That might be an unpopular opinion with some!...
Not unpopular. With 20-20 hindsight I find the education curriculum from High School through PhD level could do with a massive reform. It's a sad commentary on my misspent STEM education that touch typing, from 10th grade HS, is the only skill I aquired in all those years that has been useful throughout my career.
 
Depends on whether you get any good teachers. I learned plenty from my soph Honors English teacher. But Doc, as we called him, was the exception, not the rule.
 
I didn't learn any anatomy or physiology in art school and don't see it as absolutely necessary.

It's only necessary if it is necessary to your artistic goals. I was always obsessed with drawing the human figure so I felt such studies were quite useful. I didn't use this knowledge much while working in an Expressionistic manner. Even my current body of work employed simplified figures that didn't require a great deal of anatomy and/or physiology. More recently, I have become more interested in muscular figures and dancers... figures in motion... and I am again making more of an effort in studying anatomy and physiology.

We can probably say that no body of knowledge or artistic skill is necessary to create art of real merit. Perspective, proportions, color theory, paint manipulation, drawing from observation... an artist can get by without any of these. I would argue, however, that the more knowledge you have and the more skills that you have mastered the more possibilities are open to you.
 
I didn't learn any anatomy or physiology in art school and don't see it as absolutely necessary.

It's only necessary if it is necessary to your artistic goals. I was always obsessed with drawing the human figure so I felt such studies were quite useful. I didn't use this knowledge much while working in an Expressionistic manner. Even my current body of work employed simplified figures that didn't require a great deal of anatomy and/or physiology. More recently, I have become more interested in muscular figures and dancers... figures in motion... and I am again making more of an effort in studying anatomy and physiology.

One should just keep in mind that artistic anatomy is not quite the same thing as medical anatomy, and it needs to be applied to drawing. A lot of art books take what seems to me like a quite wrong-headed approach to the subject. Years ago I did what I thought one should do: copied from anatomy books. It did not help me in the least with figure drawing, so for many years I completely gave up on anatomy. More recently, I found more productive ways to study anatomy, but I found that for my purposes, I do not need a great deal of it. Those artist's anatomy books that have detailed pictures of individual vertebrae and ribs and so on are probably overdoing it, even if you want to take a highly anatomical approach.

But another thing I found is that studying anatomy to some extent tells you what kind of art you want to do. If you want to emulate the Renaissance masters, or those guys who do superhero figures for Marvel, you will probably almost automatically have a far greater interest in anatomy than if you want to follow in the footsteps of Van Gogh, or, like me, you are happy with cartoonish kind of work. Now if your initial ambition is to go work for Marvel, but you find that the required anatomy bores you, it may mean you should reassess what it is you want to do.

But at least some anatomy really does come in very handy. I have been following a bloke on YouTube who is into nature journaling and drawing animals, and in some of his videos he looks into the anatomy of specific animals, but he does so purely from the point of view of artistic utility. He also makes a point of showing, via photos, how the internal anatomy he discusses influences the outward appearance, and how it can help one to draw more accurately. It's brilliant stuff and has been tremendously useful to me. Far more so than some of those thick Bibles of animal anatomy that show you every single muscle and bone, irrespective of whether they make any real difference to what the animal looks like.

Of course, anatomy might also interest one from the scientific point of view, which is perfectly valid, but one should not confuse that with its artistic utility.

I am not much good at figure drawing, but personally, I found what helped me the most, far more than pretty much anything and everything else combined, has been gesture drawing. But then, I am more into somewhat cartoonish drawing, where gesture is obviously more important.

We can probably say that no body of knowledge or artistic skill is necessary to create art of real merit. Perspective, proportions, color theory, paint manipulation, drawing from observation... an artist can get by without any of these. I would argue, however, that the more knowledge you have and the more skills that you have mastered the more possibilities are open to you.

Yes, indeed, and one need not worry that it will prevent originality or somehow contaminate one with conventional ideas or whatever. Even a casual look at a great many of Picasso's drawings and paintings will show you that the ARC assessment, namely that he had no skills, is quite wrong: it's pretty obvious that he was thoroughly versed in traditional art skills, including anatomy. I.e. his very traditional training did not prevent him from being original and creative. On the contrary, I think his knowledge of basic skills facilitated his more adventurous work.
 
Anatomy as taught in art school is surface anatomy. It does not involve the internal organs or other parts of the body that are not externally visible. We did not learn the names and appearances of all the muscles but rather the muscle masses. We studied the skeleton to understand how the body was constructed and moved... as well as to grasp those bones visible on the surface.

If you are going to draw the body in a some sort of realistic manner it helps to understand just what the hell you are looking at. The back can be a real challenge. There it is especially helpful to know the skeleton and the major muscle groups that make up what you see. It is also helpful to use a muscular model (whether in real life of photographic reference)...

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... this is helpful even if you are later going to soften the surface...

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Michelangelo's Libyan Sibyl is a great example. The drawing for this figure...

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... is far more detailed in terms of surface anatomy than the final painting:

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There are muscles that sit over the ribcage that are often misunderstood because they are mistaken for ribs.

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I have older students who love comic books superheroes and strive to render those incredibly muscular bodies... but the results fall short because they don't understand what abs or the muscles in the arms and legs actually look like. And without gestures and some understanding of physiology or how the body moves, even old master works could be stiff:

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Antonio Pollaiuolo's Battle of the Naked Men was one of the first great large engravings. Pollaiuolo had a solid grasp of surface anatomy, but he didn't understand physiology. All the muscles are stiff at once.

One of the things that blows my mind with Rubens is his absolute mastery of anatomy of not merely the human body... but an entire range of animals:

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And these aren't merely animals standing in static poses that he might have gotten drawing stuffed and mounted animals. They are the most dynamic poses that he got... not from photographs... but from drawing these animals from life from the various royal zoos.😲 Where did the guy find the time in between all his paintings and his diplomatic efforts?
 
I understand that artistic anatomy is mainly surface anatomy or musculature and bone structure. When I said it's not necessary, I meant more as a requisite for learning how to draw the human figure in an academic setting. I don't feel my work suffered from not learning that way. Maybe some of how I was taught to observe was effectively teaching elements of anatomy through observation. My figure drawing teaching focused a lot on weight distribution, which requires an intuitive understanding of what the bones and muscles are doing.

But you know what, @stlukesguild? I agree with your basic argument about learning everything you can. I *have* studied artistic anatomy, just not in the context I assumed I would. That's the assumption my experience made me rethink. Obviously some understanding of human anatomy will improve your ability to draw realistic-looking figures.
 
Drunks create the best art. Even if it isn't true and I wasn't drunk (08:37am), I'd still say it just to piss people off.

 
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