Paper and oil

[john]

I'd be happy to do an experiment for you (I have a large roll of it.) My wife does watercolor; is that paper similar in texture to what you use?

About the same, thanks but although it might work I just wouldn't trust it long term. Using acrylic medium (or clear gesso which is essentially the same thing, probably even regular gesso) is pretty tried and true at this point. The tricky things are in the details as talked about above by others. Positioning, preventing warping, keeping flat while drying, smoothing with a brayer roller etc, and sufficient amounts of medium to insure a good continuous bond. Thanks though.

 

[Desforges]

Wayne, I didn't know an oil painting on paper would be so flexible. I can't believe the paint didn't crack when you wrung it like that!

Desforges, thanks for the tip about taking your time while the medium starts to dry. I think I would like to check to make sure roof lines or horizons are lined up properly before it's too late to adjust it on the board. I guess the smart thing would be to have some kind of marking on the back of the paper that corresponds with a straight edge. I'm planning to try this and trim the paper after it's mounted and would hate to see that it came out crooked.

What I meant was to keep working it as in rolling it until it starts to dry. Or test it with another piece of blank paper to make sure that it is working for you.I also apply the medium to both surfaces.

 

[Enyaw]

thanks all ..

 

[john]

I am done trying to bond paper to wood with water based adhesives.

It happened again. Liberal amounts of gloss gel medium. Weigh it down with lots of heavy books and this morning there were bubbles. As the paper absorbs moisture it expands, this causes bubbles. Maybe with 300 lb paper this might not happen but with thinner papers it does.

In the future I'm either mounting paper loose like paper should be, or using contact cement or better yet, just use panels or stretched canvas and forget paper.

I think, bottom line is that paper should just not be bonded to anything. The expansion and contraction from moisture will cause problems. It needs to be able to stretch and contract.

 

[Hermes2020]

3M make a product called PhotoMount Permanent Spray Adhesive for prints. I wonder whether that could work for you.

 

[Artyczar]

John, what adhesive did you use? I do this all the time and do it without any bubbles, but Hermes also has a good solution. I think that might be easier, but I am not sure it would stick well to wood. I use an acrylic polymer and must coat it front and back, but it's not gloss. It's matte. What do you want to do on top of the paper? I think you may be using it differently than what I use it for. If using PhotoMount Permanent Spray Adhesive, I would make sure the wood is not sealed with anything actually. It may not stick well if it is.

 

[john]

3M make a product called PhotoMount Permanent Spray Adhesive for prints. I wonder whether that could work for you.

I've used that spray adhesive before also, and while most of the time it worked there were a few times it also bubbled. For small works it's probably OK. Problem is that if bubbling does occur there isn't much one can do about it. The paper is not coming off the board again.

 

[john]

John, what adhesive did you use? I do this all the time and do it without any bubbles, but Hermes also has a good solution. I think that might be easier, but I am not sure it would stick well to wood. I use an acrylic polymer and must coat it front and back, but it's not gloss. It's matte. What do you want to do on top of the paper? I think you may be using it differently than what I use it for. If using PhotoMount Permanent Spray Adhesive, I would make sure the wood is not sealed with anything actually. It may not stick well if it is.

This time I used Liquitex gloss gel medium. It expressly says it can be used for collage. It's probably fine for that but for larger papers the expansion as it absorbs the moisture becomes too much. I was adhering an 8 x 10 painting on paper to mdf board.

This is why with larger watercolor works on paper they are never adhered down to something. They are taped/hung behind a matt so they can breath and move.

The thing is one can probably get away with it most of the time - and I have - but if it goes bad there isn't much one can do to fix it and now you have a painting that you put many hours into that has bubbles.

Do you glue down large pieces of paper?

 

[Artyczar]

Yes, but I would not do this to a watercolor painting onto a board like what you are doing. I use it for collage and paint over the paper after it dries. I also use Nova Color Clear Acrylic Polymer (matte). But it's for collage, so I slather the paper, front and back, and if any polymer is missing (spots) on the side that is sticking to the surface, there will be air bubbles. It has to be stuck down in the middle, then pushed down out to the edges as you flatten it down and done very fast before any of it has a chance to dry even slightly. It's a bit tricky. I would not use it as a mounting technique, which I think that's what you're doing?

 

[john]

Yeah I'm doing it for mounting the painting. What you are doing is fine.

On the plus side, the bubbles on the painting have now gone much flatter and can hardly be seen. Yay. Probably means there was still moist spots even after sitting under books for 16 hours.

I have heard of people mounting paintings this way and I have done it and if everything is done just right it can work, but when it doesn't there is no going back.

 

[Donna T]

I'm glad to hear that the bubbles have flattened in your painting, John. Do you think that if you coated the back of the paper with adhesive/polymer gel first and then when it's dry use the same adhesive for mounting it would help? Snoball mentioned something like this on the last page and I wonder if it would help with getting any shrinkage out of the way first. I just ordered some matte gel from Golden so I'll try it and see what happens. Maybe it will buckle the watercolor paper too much.

 

[john]

I'm glad to hear that the bubbles have flattened in your painting, John. Do you think that if you coated the back of the paper with adhesive/polymer gel first and then when it's dry use the same adhesive for mounting it would help? Snoball mentioned something like this on the last page and I wonder if it would help with getting any shrinkage out of the way first. I just ordered some matte gel from Golden so I'll try it and see what happens. Maybe it will buckle the watercolor paper too much.

Yes that would probably work well. I'm sure that doing things a certain way, with the same materials, etc could work. I have made it work in the past. But there is a reason that watercolor paintings are always tape/hung behind a matt and the one way nature (get it right or else) of pasting paper to board is one reason. No conservator would dare paste a watercolor down onto a panel.

 

[Enyaw]

.. my work will never see a conservator so they can kiss my glass: while I glue paper to board. I have not got my medium to try yet but I fail to see a reason, other than possible mess, why acrylic paint would not do the job very effectively. Now, if they had and I think they do: see through acrylic paint.

 

[Donna T]

But there is a reason that watercolor paintings are always tape/hung behind a matt and the one way nature (get it right or else) of pasting paper to board is one reason. No conservator would dare paste a watercolor down onto a panel.

I understand the reasoning behind this with watercolors, John. Since I'm using acrylics and covering the whole painted surface with them would that effectively seal out the air and moisture on that side? I wonder if sealing the back too would lock out all moisture. I won't have to worry about conservators but I do try to use archival materials, just in case, lol.

 

[john]

.. my work will never see a conservator so they can kiss my glass: while I glue paper to board. I have not got my medium to try yet but I fail to see a reason, other than possible mess, why acrylic paint would not do the job very effectively. Now, if they had and I think they do: see through acrylic paint.

Because acrylic paint or medium is water based and can cause expansion/warping of the paper and resulting bubbles, as I have seen now multiple times. Especially of thinner papers.

In the case of your impasto thick oils on paper it probably would not be noticed if there is some small bubbling. And waterproofing the back of the paper before adhering/precoating would probably prevent that.

And if the painting only took you an hour or so if it doesn't work out it's not a huge deal.


But I would like to ask a conservator about this. I'm sure they would be horrified at the idea of pasting large paper to board. And they often moan about the techniques of artists in this regard. But repairing the messes keeps them employed.

 

[john]

I understand the reasoning behind this with watercolors, John. Since I'm using acrylics and covering the whole painted surface with them would that effectively seal out the air and moisture on that side? I wonder if sealing the back too would lock out all moisture. I won't have to worry about conservators but I do try to use archival materials, just in case, lol.

Yes, sealing the back would be necessary to prevent moisture from getting into the paper during the adhesion process and thus would prevent warping.

But you can use a brayer and put a ton of flat stuff on top and do everything right, and if you get bubbles after it dries there is nothing you can do. It's too late.

I would still do it for small quick works but for important stuff I personally am not going to risk it anymore.

 

[Enyaw]

I actually have a paper unattached but there is a back board, mounted in a standard frame. It has been there about 6 months and looks no worse for wear or tear in the normal run of things. I would not sell one as I have no idea what time will do with heavy paint on 136 lb paper. I have a few booklets of my paper oil paintings and I simply stand them against the wall and they are still as straight as when I put them back into their cardboard cover. The paper is treated so perhaps that helps.

And if the painting only took you an hour or so if it doesn't work out it's not a huge deal.
Of course it is; it took 30 years to learn how to paint that economically in time. That's gotta be worth something.

 

[john]

I actually have a paper unattached but there is a back board, mounted in a standard frame. It has been there about 6 months and looks no worse for wear or tear in the normal run of things. I would not sell one as I have no idea what time will do with heavy paint on 136 lb paper. I have a few booklets of my paper oil paintings and I simply stand them against the wall and they are still as straight as when I put them back into their cardboard cover. The paper is treated so perhaps that helps.

And if the painting only took you an hour or so if it doesn't work out it's not a huge deal.
Of course it is; it took 30 years to learn how to paint that economically in time. That's gotta be worth something.

Ha ha, I should not have said an hour. That sounded demeaning. Your works are great. But you know what I mean.

Yeah I think loose mounting paintings that are on paper is the way to go. I have an impasto knife painting on paper that I need to frame and I think I will just loosely trap it along the edges with the frame molding with as you said, a backer board , and maybe some double side tape in the middle to keep it from ballooning out.

 

[Enyaw]

Ha ha, I should not have said an hour. That sounded demeaning

No harm, no foul. I painted in an hour when I did landscapes from photos because there wasn't much thinking going on. Now I spend two or three hours doing abstract because I have to think and react. Sometimes I have to repaint a section more than a few times and sometimes one bad section will cause me to repaint the whole thing: more than once. When I learn more, perhaps my decisions will be better and I can save time again.

I also have nothing to stop the thing from bucketing. Strictly paper with a board as a freelance brace. Held only by a 1/4 inch frame moulding.

Take care.

 

[Hermes2020]

Since bubbles are trapped air, try to stab the paper with a sharp pin all over to create an array of invisible pinpricks in the paper. Then, regardless of the type of glue you use, the bubbles will deflate when you use a rubber roller to flatten the paper.