Great Sculptors Of the Past And Present.
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stlukesguild
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Lorenzo Ghiberti famously beat out Brunelleschi in the competition for a set of bronze doors for the Baptistry of Florence. Brunelleschi went of to become one of the greatest architects and artistic geniuses of the Renaissance. Ghiberti is frequently underrated. His second set of gilded bronze doors for the Baptistry were termed worthy of being the Porte del Paradiso by no less an sculptor than Michelangelo, and they retain this name... The Gates of Paradise... to this day.
Ghiberti's work was the obvious model for Rodin's Gates of Hell. Much as I admire Rodin's work, Ghiberti's Gates of Paradise impress me far more.
stlukesguild
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I quite like Claudel, although IMO she comes nowhere near to rivalling Rodin. She might have become an even greater and successful sculptor if not for her family. After her break-up with Rodin, Claudel reportedly became fixated with Rodin... accusing him of continuing to steal her art. Her mother used this to justify having her daughter committed. Her mother was repulsed by Camille's bohemian lifestyle as an artist and outraged by her affair with Rodin, which she feared would damage her brother Paul's career. Paul Claudel was a strong poet, dramatist, and diplomat. Camille's mother had her committed for life only allowed mail from Paul. She was literally locked away and made to disappear. The family only spoke of her in the past-tense... as if she were already dead. One wonders what might have been had she been able to continue in her career.
Schuee
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Yes, all that genius gone to waste.
Artyczar
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Where did you get this version of this story? From what I remember reading, Rodin squelched her efforts at almost every turn. It was also not easy for a woman to have a career as a serious sculptor at this time. No one was supportive of it. I don't think Rodin would allow a woman to even come close to letting a woman "surpass" him/his genius, or rather, get anywhere near the accolades as he was received, or any the notoriety? Forget it. It was known he played with her feelings and was cruel to her, and she wasn't obsessed with him without him being an innocent in that situation. That was what I understood. She had mental health issues as well, but that was not the only reason she couldn't cultivate he own career.
stlukesguild
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Art history involves many "alternative histories" in which writers/historians seek to make a name for themselves by putting a new spin on the facts more than simply revealing what is truly known objectively. I read a number of books on Rodin and Claudel back when I was still in art school with illusions of becoming a sculptor... before I was forced to acknowledge that I had no ability to think in 3-dimensional terms at all. I also delved further into Camille's story while reading up on Paul Claudel whose poetic efforts interested me at the time.
Even a perusal of Wikipedia will reveal many of the same facts of Claudel's life that I posted above.
Claudel started working in Rodin's workshop in 1883 and became a source of inspiration for him. She acted as his model, his confidante, and his lover. Rodin, however, never had any intention of ending his 20-year relationship with his long-term lover and later wife, Rose Beuret.
Knowledge of Camille's affair outraged her family, especially her mother, who already detested her for not being a boy and never approved of Claudel's involvement in the arts.
Claudel ended her affair with Rodin in 1892 but the two continued to see each other frequently until 1898. There are debates about how much Rodin supported or didn't support Claudel after their separation. Rodin did sign some of Claudel's work from the period in which she was his apprentice, but this was common practice among artists and their apprentices at the time. Rodin stopped all contact with Claudel in 1898/99 after having seen her sculpture, The Mature Age.
The work is generally interpreted as an allegory of the three stages of life... but Claudel's brother and Rodin took the work to be an allegory of her affair and break up with Rodin.
Money was one of the largest struggles facing Claudel after her final break with Rodin. Women were generally underrated, neglected, and ignored as artists. Mary Cassatt was an exception thanks to the wealth of her family... but even being the friend, colleague, model, and sister-in-law of Manet was not enough to assure Berthe Morisot the recognition worthy of her art. Claudel faced the greater challenge of the immense expense of sculpture. Claudel did not receive many official commissions because her style was highly unusual for a woman according to the contemporary conservative tastes... especially due to the erotic nature of her art. A good number of historians suggest it was not Rodin, but her brother Paul who was truly jealous of her genius, and that he conspired with her mother, who never forgave her for shaming the family to ruin her and keep her confined to a mental hospital.
After 1905 Claudel appeared to be suffering from mental illness. She destroyed many of her sculptures (although this was somewhat common among sculptors reusing materials). She disappeared for long periods of time, exhibited signs of paranoia, and was diagnosed as having schizophrenia. She accused Rodin of stealing her ideas and of leading a conspiracy to kill her. After the death of her supportive father, she was admitted to a psychiatric hospital at the request of her brother Paul. The forms of admission state that she was "voluntarily committed" yet these were signed only by a doctor and her brother. Over the years, doctors tried to convince Paul and their mother that Claudel did not need to be in the institution, yet they insisted on keeping her there. Her mother forbid any mail to Camille from anyone other than her brother. Several doctors regularly proposed to her family that Claudel be released, but her mother adamantly refused each time.
Of course, there are a number of more recent books that portray Rodin as the villain in Claudel's tragic life story. It seems more complex than that. Her family situation reminds me of Verdi's opera, La Traviata... or Dumas' book, La Dame aux camélias on which the opera was based. Camille was sacrificed for the sake of the family reputation and her brother's career. But Claudel was also undone by the bias against female artists, the conservative belief that women shouldn't be involved in something as physical as sculpture let alone creating art of an erotic nature, and her mental illness and poor treatment of such at the time.
Even a perusal of Wikipedia will reveal many of the same facts of Claudel's life that I posted above.
Claudel started working in Rodin's workshop in 1883 and became a source of inspiration for him. She acted as his model, his confidante, and his lover. Rodin, however, never had any intention of ending his 20-year relationship with his long-term lover and later wife, Rose Beuret.
Knowledge of Camille's affair outraged her family, especially her mother, who already detested her for not being a boy and never approved of Claudel's involvement in the arts.
Claudel ended her affair with Rodin in 1892 but the two continued to see each other frequently until 1898. There are debates about how much Rodin supported or didn't support Claudel after their separation. Rodin did sign some of Claudel's work from the period in which she was his apprentice, but this was common practice among artists and their apprentices at the time. Rodin stopped all contact with Claudel in 1898/99 after having seen her sculpture, The Mature Age.
The work is generally interpreted as an allegory of the three stages of life... but Claudel's brother and Rodin took the work to be an allegory of her affair and break up with Rodin.
Money was one of the largest struggles facing Claudel after her final break with Rodin. Women were generally underrated, neglected, and ignored as artists. Mary Cassatt was an exception thanks to the wealth of her family... but even being the friend, colleague, model, and sister-in-law of Manet was not enough to assure Berthe Morisot the recognition worthy of her art. Claudel faced the greater challenge of the immense expense of sculpture. Claudel did not receive many official commissions because her style was highly unusual for a woman according to the contemporary conservative tastes... especially due to the erotic nature of her art. A good number of historians suggest it was not Rodin, but her brother Paul who was truly jealous of her genius, and that he conspired with her mother, who never forgave her for shaming the family to ruin her and keep her confined to a mental hospital.
After 1905 Claudel appeared to be suffering from mental illness. She destroyed many of her sculptures (although this was somewhat common among sculptors reusing materials). She disappeared for long periods of time, exhibited signs of paranoia, and was diagnosed as having schizophrenia. She accused Rodin of stealing her ideas and of leading a conspiracy to kill her. After the death of her supportive father, she was admitted to a psychiatric hospital at the request of her brother Paul. The forms of admission state that she was "voluntarily committed" yet these were signed only by a doctor and her brother. Over the years, doctors tried to convince Paul and their mother that Claudel did not need to be in the institution, yet they insisted on keeping her there. Her mother forbid any mail to Camille from anyone other than her brother. Several doctors regularly proposed to her family that Claudel be released, but her mother adamantly refused each time.
Of course, there are a number of more recent books that portray Rodin as the villain in Claudel's tragic life story. It seems more complex than that. Her family situation reminds me of Verdi's opera, La Traviata... or Dumas' book, La Dame aux camélias on which the opera was based. Camille was sacrificed for the sake of the family reputation and her brother's career. But Claudel was also undone by the bias against female artists, the conservative belief that women shouldn't be involved in something as physical as sculpture let alone creating art of an erotic nature, and her mental illness and poor treatment of such at the time.
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stlukesguild
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Putting your "soul" into your art is just so much romantic nonsense IMO. Any emotional or spiritual response to a work of art is brought to the work by the viewer. It seems that more than a few artists and art lovers have a view of Rodin's art that differs from yours. There is probably a reason that Rodin is generally recognized as the most influential... if not the greatest sculptor after Michelangelo, Donatello, and Bernini prior to the 20th century.
These certainly don't strike me as vacuous "soulless" efforts.
On the other hand... I'd probably go with Degas' 14-Year old Dancer as the most innovative sculpture of the 19th century:
These certainly don't strike me as vacuous "soulless" efforts.
On the other hand... I'd probably go with Degas' 14-Year old Dancer as the most innovative sculpture of the 19th century:
pcj
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To St Luke's Guild.
First of all - I didn't say ALL of Rodin's work was soulless. I said that he has done
[and is well known for doing] dozens and dozens of purely erotic drawings and
some sculptures which , to all appearances, were done solely for the purpose of
eroticism and not for any other purpose. I don't consider that great art [ I don't care
what the art critics of the world think . Most of them wouldn't know great art if
they bumped into it.]
2nd - You said there is no soul in art , it is so much romantic nonsense in the eye of the
viewer !!!!!! - I can't believe you said that !!
I think you certainly have a unique opinion there, Why do you think artists
do art ? Do you do art ??
3rd. Do you think we could have a good discussion about sculpture without personally
insulting other peoples opinions.
Patricia
First of all - I didn't say ALL of Rodin's work was soulless. I said that he has done
[and is well known for doing] dozens and dozens of purely erotic drawings and
some sculptures which , to all appearances, were done solely for the purpose of
eroticism and not for any other purpose. I don't consider that great art [ I don't care
what the art critics of the world think . Most of them wouldn't know great art if
they bumped into it.]
2nd - You said there is no soul in art , it is so much romantic nonsense in the eye of the
viewer !!!!!! - I can't believe you said that !!
I think you certainly have a unique opinion there, Why do you think artists
do art ? Do you do art ??
3rd. Do you think we could have a good discussion about sculpture without personally
insulting other peoples opinions.
Patricia
Artyczar
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How did anyone claim one of them was a "villain?" Claudel had mental illness and that hardly makes her at fault, nor a villain. She didn't get the recognition she deserved and she clearly had familial problems on top of everything else. She had plenty of things to exacerbate her predicament. I think the situation with Rodin only gave her extra trauma, but no one is claiming fault. It's just a tragedy. That's all.
And Wikipedia? Everyone knows that thing can't always be a trusted source! This is also history as many different people have interpreted it. We know she was in and out of hospitals for her mental illness. Certain things are facts, but some things are interpretations too. In any case. It's all just sad, and I have not much more to argue about with you SLG. I only meant times back then made it hard to be a female artist, and that is not an untruth. Being in Rodin's shadow must not have been easy and love makes people a little crazy (all genders). I also have every right to like her work way more than his. Like you have your right to like the stuff you like. Her work was very, very different for its time. It still is.
And Wikipedia? Everyone knows that thing can't always be a trusted source! This is also history as many different people have interpreted it. We know she was in and out of hospitals for her mental illness. Certain things are facts, but some things are interpretations too. In any case. It's all just sad, and I have not much more to argue about with you SLG. I only meant times back then made it hard to be a female artist, and that is not an untruth. Being in Rodin's shadow must not have been easy and love makes people a little crazy (all genders). I also have every right to like her work way more than his. Like you have your right to like the stuff you like. Her work was very, very different for its time. It still is.
stlukesguild
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First of all - I didn't say ALL of Rodin's work was soulless. I said that he has done
[and is well known for doing] dozens and dozens of purely erotic drawings and
some sculptures which , to all appearances, were done solely for the purpose of
eroticism and not for any other purpose. I don't consider that great art...
As is true of any artist, Rodin churned out his share of mediocre art. I wouldn't dismiss his... or any other artist's work... purely because its purpose was "solely for the purpose of eroticism". Sexuality is one of humanity's most profound experiences and every bit as worthy of exploration through art as any other topic.
I don't care what the art critics of the world think . Most of them wouldn't know great art if they bumped into it.
Good critics frequently spend more time looking at and learning about art than most others. Good criticism can be challenging and eye-opening. It's easy to dismiss a critic we don't agree with as being clueless to what great art is. It might be pointed out, however, that it is not so much critics who continue to champion Rodin, but rather Art Historians, subsequent artists, and art lovers.
Of course we all must ultimately make up our minds ourselves
2nd - You said there is no soul in art , it is so much romantic nonsense in the eye of the
viewer !!!!!! - I can't believe you said that !!
The existence of a "soul" in human beings is open to debate... to say nothing of their ability to infuse an inanimate object with the same.
I think you certainly have a unique opinion there
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.
-Oscar Wilde
Perhaps not all that unique.
Why do you think artists do art ?
To bare the soul? Some might believe this. I have little doubt that the reasons for making art are as varied as the artists who make art.
Do you do art ??
I am a painter who works in mixed media (acrylic, pastel, gold leaf, etc...) although over the years I have explored collage, oils, watercolor, wood-block prints, assemblage, etc...
[and is well known for doing] dozens and dozens of purely erotic drawings and
some sculptures which , to all appearances, were done solely for the purpose of
eroticism and not for any other purpose. I don't consider that great art...
As is true of any artist, Rodin churned out his share of mediocre art. I wouldn't dismiss his... or any other artist's work... purely because its purpose was "solely for the purpose of eroticism". Sexuality is one of humanity's most profound experiences and every bit as worthy of exploration through art as any other topic.
I don't care what the art critics of the world think . Most of them wouldn't know great art if they bumped into it.
Good critics frequently spend more time looking at and learning about art than most others. Good criticism can be challenging and eye-opening. It's easy to dismiss a critic we don't agree with as being clueless to what great art is. It might be pointed out, however, that it is not so much critics who continue to champion Rodin, but rather Art Historians, subsequent artists, and art lovers.
Of course we all must ultimately make up our minds ourselves
2nd - You said there is no soul in art , it is so much romantic nonsense in the eye of the
viewer !!!!!! - I can't believe you said that !!
The existence of a "soul" in human beings is open to debate... to say nothing of their ability to infuse an inanimate object with the same.
I think you certainly have a unique opinion there
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.
-Oscar Wilde
Perhaps not all that unique.
Why do you think artists do art ?
To bare the soul? Some might believe this. I have little doubt that the reasons for making art are as varied as the artists who make art.
Do you do art ??
I am a painter who works in mixed media (acrylic, pastel, gold leaf, etc...) although over the years I have explored collage, oils, watercolor, wood-block prints, assemblage, etc...
stlukesguild
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I think the situation with Rodin only gave her extra trauma, but no one is claiming fault. It's just a tragedy. That's all.
That is largely my feeling as well... although after reading up on her I found myself quite feeling that her mother and brother were despicable people to say the least.
And Wikipedia? Everyone knows that thing can't always be a trusted source!
Of course, that's true. I will note that the Wiki posts on Rodin, Camille Claudel, and Paul Claudel are better than many and include proper citations... but they could use some serious editing. I can't cite my own books on Rodin, Camille, or Paul Claudel at present as most of my library is currently in storage.
I only meant times back then made it hard to be a female artist, and that is not an untruth.
Absolutely... and the added challenge of the physical and financial demands of sculpture only added to this. Even Degas was unable to finance having his sculpture cast in bronze. I recall that even many of Rodin's sculpture were only cast in bronze after his death.
I quite like Claudel's work and wish she had been able to realize more of her potential.
That is largely my feeling as well... although after reading up on her I found myself quite feeling that her mother and brother were despicable people to say the least.
And Wikipedia? Everyone knows that thing can't always be a trusted source!
Of course, that's true. I will note that the Wiki posts on Rodin, Camille Claudel, and Paul Claudel are better than many and include proper citations... but they could use some serious editing. I can't cite my own books on Rodin, Camille, or Paul Claudel at present as most of my library is currently in storage.
I only meant times back then made it hard to be a female artist, and that is not an untruth.
Absolutely... and the added challenge of the physical and financial demands of sculpture only added to this. Even Degas was unable to finance having his sculpture cast in bronze. I recall that even many of Rodin's sculpture were only cast in bronze after his death.
I quite like Claudel's work and wish she had been able to realize more of her potential.
pcj
From Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, England
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"As is true of any artist, Rodin churned out his share of mediocre art. I wouldn't dismiss his... or any other artist's work... purely because its purpose was "solely for the purpose of eroticism". Sexuality is one of humanity's most profound experiences and every bit as worthy of exploration through art as any other topic."
You persist in misunderstanding me ! At no time have I dismissed his work [see my post # 18 ]
I like some of his work, I think the 'Burghers Of Calais ' was his best by far but it's
hard to take him seriously after he started taking 'bit's' of one sculpture and putting them into
another 'so called 'new' sculpture. [did he run out of ideas ?]
His work sometimes shows the influence of the sculptors he studied under and
then worked for and , one might ponder , the influence of the sculptors [like Claudel] who actually
made the sculpture after he did the macquette. As every sculptor knows, the work can change
dramatically from macquette to finished work . I think this is why Claudel believed in 'her own hands on her own work'
and liked to do everything for her sculptures - not 'farm ' it out to an assistant.
Eroticism is NOT the same thing as sexuality ! Sexuality is, as you say, one of humanity's most profound
experiences [ we agree on something at last !! ]
Good critics frequently spend more time looking at and learning about art than most others. Good criticism can be challenging and eye-opening. It's easy to dismiss a critic we don't agree with as being clueless to what great art is. It might be pointed out, however, that it is not so much critics who continue to champion Rodin, but rather Art Historians, subsequent artists, and art lovers.
I don't dismiss critics that I don't agree with as being clueless. It is you who dismisses opinions that you don't agree with.
I, too, have done a great deal of looking at and learning about art which has led me to the conclusion
that some critics only give opinions that agree with a current fad and that they hope will make them, personally, famous
regardless of what the 'artwork' is.
Once again, I repeat, I did not dismiss Rodin. I .simply said that I like Claudel's sculptures far more than Rodin's
and I have a right to voice my opinion . You have a right to your opinion too. The difference between us is
that I have not sneered at your opinion.
I'm not even going to discuss 'soul'. Looking at your reply, you've completely misunderstood what I was talking about.
I think that's about does it for this particular subject.
Patricia
You persist in misunderstanding me ! At no time have I dismissed his work [see my post # 18 ]
I like some of his work, I think the 'Burghers Of Calais ' was his best by far but it's
hard to take him seriously after he started taking 'bit's' of one sculpture and putting them into
another 'so called 'new' sculpture. [did he run out of ideas ?]
His work sometimes shows the influence of the sculptors he studied under and
then worked for and , one might ponder , the influence of the sculptors [like Claudel] who actually
made the sculpture after he did the macquette. As every sculptor knows, the work can change
dramatically from macquette to finished work . I think this is why Claudel believed in 'her own hands on her own work'
and liked to do everything for her sculptures - not 'farm ' it out to an assistant.
Eroticism is NOT the same thing as sexuality ! Sexuality is, as you say, one of humanity's most profound
experiences [ we agree on something at last !! ]
Good critics frequently spend more time looking at and learning about art than most others. Good criticism can be challenging and eye-opening. It's easy to dismiss a critic we don't agree with as being clueless to what great art is. It might be pointed out, however, that it is not so much critics who continue to champion Rodin, but rather Art Historians, subsequent artists, and art lovers.
I don't dismiss critics that I don't agree with as being clueless. It is you who dismisses opinions that you don't agree with.
I, too, have done a great deal of looking at and learning about art which has led me to the conclusion
that some critics only give opinions that agree with a current fad and that they hope will make them, personally, famous
regardless of what the 'artwork' is.
Once again, I repeat, I did not dismiss Rodin. I .simply said that I like Claudel's sculptures far more than Rodin's
and I have a right to voice my opinion . You have a right to your opinion too. The difference between us is
that I have not sneered at your opinion.
I'm not even going to discuss 'soul'. Looking at your reply, you've completely misunderstood what I was talking about.
I think that's about does it for this particular subject.
Patricia
pcj
From Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, England
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Rodin worked for Carrier-Belleuse at one time.
This is the 'Vase Of The Titans'
by both Carrier-Belleuse and Rodin.
The original idea and drawing is by Carriere-Belleuse
The figures on the vase were modelled by Rodin and show how he
was influenced by Michelangelo.
The 'Vase Of The Titans'
and here is the original drawing [and idea ] for the vase
by Carrier-Belleuse [this drawing is now in the Musee Des Beaux Arts in Calais]
Rodin's modelling of the figures is quite different from the original idea
and shows the obvious influence that Michelangelo's sculptures had
on him when he visited Italy. It also shows that the finished work [which
was signed by Carrier-Belleuse ] changed completely because
Carrier-Belleuse had someone else do the sculpting instead of doing it himself.
Patricia
This is the 'Vase Of The Titans'
by both Carrier-Belleuse and Rodin.
The original idea and drawing is by Carriere-Belleuse
The figures on the vase were modelled by Rodin and show how he
was influenced by Michelangelo.
The 'Vase Of The Titans'
and here is the original drawing [and idea ] for the vase
by Carrier-Belleuse [this drawing is now in the Musee Des Beaux Arts in Calais]
Rodin's modelling of the figures is quite different from the original idea
and shows the obvious influence that Michelangelo's sculptures had
on him when he visited Italy. It also shows that the finished work [which
was signed by Carrier-Belleuse ] changed completely because
Carrier-Belleuse had someone else do the sculpting instead of doing it himself.
Patricia
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stlukesguild
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Today I began a unit on Egyptian Art with my 8th-Grade students. Egyptian sculpture is certainly among the finest in history:
-Queen Hatshepsut
-Akhenaten
-Queen Nefertiti
-The long-necked Nefertiti always makes me think of Audrey Hepburn.
-The Colossal Statue of Ramses
-Queen Hatshepsut
-Akhenaten
-Queen Nefertiti
-The long-necked Nefertiti always makes me think of Audrey Hepburn.
-The Colossal Statue of Ramses
stlukesguild
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-More images of Ramses
-King Tutankhamun
-The naturalism... yet classicism of the portrait of the architect, Hemiun, is quite impressive.
stlukesguild
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Menkaure (Mycerinus) and his Queen (with the Goddess Hathor in the Triad)
-Chief Priest Kaaper
-Head of Sphynx
-Head of Priest
