Cy Twombley

[Desforges]

Personally, it is not jealousy or anger, or that they don’t deserve it, it has more to do with the zero money and 48,000,000. To me that is almost weird. My feeling has nothing to do with the artist, more like the system.

 

[Artyczar]

We've all had this argument before about Cy Twombley, and I don't think I get heated so much about him as I do about what he represents in art. I think I'm just now realizing this. I'd take the thrashing of any artist personally, because I am an artist. You are an artist. That's personal. I've also heard the same comments about my own work and I suppose it makes me a bit angry, or sad rather, like I'm not valid as an artist. If you work hard at making art, what's the difference if it's liked or not, as long as you are making at least some people happy? I don't know. I guess it just makes me sad. I really enjoy his work. It's often taken my breath away. I can see that happening for someone else. Why does the Menil collection exist? Is that a big laundering outfit?

 

[Maybenartist]

Its marketing and Cy Twombley is a brand, just as rock stars, sports players and everything else are these days. It's the brand that is marketed rather than the product itself.

How others spend their money is not something I think about much.

 

[Maybenartist]

We've all had this argument before about Cy Twombley, and I don't think I get heated so much about him as I do about what he represents in art. I think I'm just now realizing this. I'd take the thrashing of any artist personally, because I am an artist. You are an artist. That's personal. I've also heard the same comments about my own work and I suppose it makes me a bit angry, or sad rather, like I'm not valid as an artist. If you work hard at making art, what's the difference if it's liked or not, as long as you are making at least some people happy? I don't know. I guess it just makes me sad. I really enjoy his work. It's often taken my breath away. I can see that happening for someone else. Why does the Menil collection exist? Is that a big laundering outfit?

I'm not willing to get into a discussion about this, you think whatever you wish and kindly let me have the same choice.

 

[musket]

Big artists are deemed important by big critics from whom big money people take their views. Simple as that.

 

[stlukesguild]

It seems to me that there is a big disconnect between Art and the Art Market. We all know the stories of Van Gogh and other "starving artists" who never achieved real financial success until late in their careers... if at all. Yet we still have a great many who assume that success in the market and success as an artist are one and the same thing. I often wonder how much this is due to American mercenary capitalism. We have the New York Times Best Seller List, the Billboard Charts, and the Box Office Reports on which movies made the most millions over the past week. But do these have the least thing at all to do with artistic merit? The Monkees outsold the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan in 1967. Were they anywhere near as good as any of these... let alone better? And these markets are populist and based purely on the number of sales. The Art World... with the few exceptions of artists such as Thomas Kinkade or Peter Max... is based upon the the support of a few super wealthy galleries and a few super wealthy collectors. Are Damien Hirst, Jeff Koons, Banksy, Julian Schnabel, etc... artistic geniuses because their art sells for such stratospheric prices? Are they truly the best artists of our time? Many would think so and the support of the major Art media reinforces this link between financial success... price... and artistic worth.

A couple favorite cartoon strips of mine are these insightful comments on the Art Market from Calvin & Hobbes:

Undoubtedly, there is a degree of frustration... maybe even anger... with the absolutely obscene success in monetary terms of some artists whose merits we may question while so many others of real ability are ignored. Such feelings may be only increased when a vast majority assume a link between monetary success and artistic merit. I don't think many of us would apply such judgments elsewhere assuming that Jeff Bezos or our current president are better/smarter/harder working than many others because of their financial success. Still, there are many who do hold such beliefs.

Olive speaks of the need to be the "contrarian" defending the underdog, it would seem, whom everyone hates. I don't imagine that an artist whose work sells for $40 Million or the dealers and buyers involved in such sales really care what we think. I actually have a hard time seeing any such "Art Stars" as outsiders or underdogs needing our sympathy. I've made my opinion of Twombly clear many times in the past and see no use in flogging a dead horse. Rather, I find myself thinking of a comment I read years ago by Paul Klee in one of his journals. He suggested that a negative philosophy when it comes to art is insufficient. Rather, what one needs is a positive philosophy: a clear notion of what one admires or likes as opposed to what one one dislikes.

 

[stlukesguild]

There are few big critics anymore. Most of the more influential critics work for the major art media who make the majority of the income from advertising from the major (wealthy) art galleries. It is hard to be objective when your salary is being paid by those who expect glowing reviews of the artists in their galleries.

 

[Desforges]

If any of us was painting for money we would not paint.

 

[Artyczar]

Of course sales are not what determines artistic worth. I just think, as SLG has quoted the thing Klee has said, there is no use bashing other artists just because they do sell. It doesn't really have to do with the work, or rather, it doesn't have to do with the work of those that haven't sold or that have sold for less. It is what it is and we can't control these things.

 

[Artyczar]

I'm not willing to get into a discussion about this, you think whatever you wish and kindly let me have the same choice.

I never felt you couldn't have your opinion Maybenartist. Sorry if you thought I was taking away your voice in some way.

 

[musket]

Calvin and Hobbes could say more truth about the fine arts market in just a few comic strips than most people can in entire books.

 

[Maybenartist]

I couldn't even afford the gps tracker chip the insurance company probably demands

I never felt you couldn't have your opinion Maybenartist. Sorry if you thought I was taking away your voice in some way.

Well I said I actually like the painting, which I do.
The 'might even be money laundering' was a tongue in cheek statement that may have read as cynical. Nevertheless, in financial circles the art market is well known as being one where money laundering occurs, made easier by anonymity and ridiculous amounts of money.
Take for example Salvatore Mundi which was sold for 450 million, does anyone know where it is or who the buyer was?

 

[Artyczar]

Maybenartist, I apologize if I said anything that seemed directed at you. It wasn't meant to. I just got passionate about my feelings in general. Again, I apologize.

 

[Maybenartist]

Maybenartist, I apologize if I said anything that seemed directed at you. It wasn't meant to. I just got passionate about my feelings in general. Again, I apologize.

Thank you Arty, there is never any need to apologise to me. I know you are passionate about art and rightly so. I've always liked what you write and your work. Even if you swear at me I still won't be offended.

 

[Artyczar]

I'd never swear at you. I'd only swear with you.

 

[Nufocus]

To add 50 cents to this exciting thread: 1. Laundering? Nah.... One does not launder dirty linen with so much publicity! 2. Maybe you guys are familiar with the “free zone” highly secured storage facility outside of Geneva (Switzerland), which is supposed to be “no man’s land”. Billionaires and multimillionaires store their art purchased for untold sums there without ever having it hung on their mansions walls. Who was the idiot (Klee?) who said that art is made to be liked and/or enjoyed?!?... Art is made to be stored away between buying it low and selling it high. Hey, don’t jump on me please! I’m stating sad and hugely ridiculous facts. I’m totally opposed.
3. Speaking of untold sums of money, the Saudi guy who bought Leonardo’s (still not 100% attributed to him!!) Salvatore Mundi for only $540M got special terms (installments) from Christie’s. Apparently, he has not paid in full yet and may never will!!
Cheers!

 

[Maybenartist]

Of course I've heard of freeports, where do you think I've been keeping my art!

 

[musket]

Oh, it's definitely about investment.

 

[Nufocus]

Maybe, you are a funny guy!!!
Am I here to amuse you?!?
Goodfellas

 

[Maybenartist]

Maybe, you are a funny guy!!!
Am I here to amuse you?!?
Goodfellas

You are here to show me the paintings you create such as "desolation' and others. That is enough for me