Nude painting row at French school sparks teacher walkout

brianvds

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Nude painting row at French school sparks teacher walkout​


Note to StLukesGuild: Perhaps you should show this same painting to your own 11- and 12-year-old students. America is after all a bastion of liberty, so I'm sure there won't be any issues... :D

On a related note, some of my students, admittedly all primary school age, were absolutely horrified when I told them that if they really wanted to master anime drawing (as virtually all of them claim), they'd do well to study the human skeleton. :)
 
America is after all a bastion of liberty...

According to who? We have more than our share of censors and would-be authoritarians. Of course, I wouldn't even think of showing a nude in class in the public schools. There are far too many students... and probably more parents... who are in no way mature enough to deal with "mature" subject matter.

Initially, I was surprised at the negative reaction of the French... but in reading the article, it was pointed out that the students were quite young... 11 & 12. The article also mentions that the school was near the neighborhood where a teacher had been killed and beheaded for showing caricatures of Muhammad by a radicalized Chechen teen. Just this past week, 6 more teens were convicted for their roles in the murder. This all suggests that the students in the current situation are likely immigrants not sharing France's longtime open stance concerning nudity... especially in the arts.
 
Now a story from some years ago concerning French "prudery" at the famous Musée d'Orsay caught my eye in more ways than one:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54099251
truly, countries not respecting women seems to be quite international, in most countries its still illegal for women to be topless even during massive heatwaves. However when it comes to nudity and art i have to say that united states are an exceptionaly puritanical place, in large part because thats where puritans went after being kicked out of europe, and now american firms censor things everywhere online yu know. So yeah europe is in fact less prudish, not saying that europe is good enough, it still sucks, but its a gradient. Im not gonna comment on the walkout because it seems to have much more going on than headline implies, and im out of my depth, but yeah im pro nudity, opponent of post christian culture of policing and shaming bodies especially these of women.
 
I can just imagine the outrage this MAD Magazine cover stirred up in the US:

410406712_1061771638472514_5733466285971110547_n.jpg
 
However when it comes to nudity and art i have to say that united states are an exceptionaly puritanical place, in large part because thats where puritans went after being kicked out of europe, and now american firms censor things everywhere online yu know.
So then the Puritans were Europeans, yu know, English in fact. But they did not bring their puritanical attitudes to the United States, because the USA didn't exist in the 17th century. They brought their puritanical attitudes from Protestant Europe to the Massachusetts Bay Colony, an English colony. They witnessed naked natives there and went running back to England to fight with the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell in the English Civil War.

Our First Ammendment in our Bill of Rights allowed the eventual publication of magazines like Playboy and Hustler and a lot of spin-off publications featuring nude art photography. They have been very successful. Any censorship against them has been spotty. Tell me those publications haven't been sold or copied in Europe...Asia...Africa...India...Antarctica. We publish tits and ass to the world and you buy it.

We have 50 states and each one of them has a separate culture, government and laws. In New York State, where I live, it is legal for a woman to go topless on a public beach, just like men can. I have seen ladies do this on the sunny sandy shores and public beaches of Lake Champlain. Not a lot but often enough. People seeing this are amused and entertained, or horrified and hustle their children away, but nobody calls the police.

You know we've had strip clubs and burlesque shows in America, for about 100 years at least.

American firms may censor a lot of things right now but I don't see that sex and nudity is one of them.

I wish people from other countries and cultures would get their facts straight, or visit here, before presuming to tell Americans what our life is about.
 
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So then the Puritans were Europeans, yu know, English in fact. But they did not bring their puritanical attitudes to the United States, because the USA didn't exist in the 17th century. They brought their puritanical attitudes from Protestant Europe to the Massachusetts Bay Colony, an English colony. They witnessed naked natives there and went running back to England to fight with the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell in the English Civil War.

Our First Ammendment in our Bill of Rights allowed the eventual publication of magazines like Playboy and Hustler and a lot of spin-off publications featuring nude art photography. They have been very successful. Any censorship against them has been spotty. Tell me those publications haven't been sold or copied in Europe...Asia...Africa...India...Antarctica. We publish tits and ass to the world and you buy it.

We have 50 states and each one of them has a separate culture, government and laws. In New York State, where I live, it is legal for a woman to go topless on a public beach, just like men can. I have seen ladies do this on the sunny sandy shores and public beaches of Lake Champlain. Not a lot but often enough. People seeing this are amused and entertained, or horrified and hustle their children away, but nobody calls the police.

You know we've had strip clubs and burlesque shows in America, for about 100 years at least.

American firms may censor a lot of things right now but I don't see that sex and nudity is one of them.

I wish people from other countries and cultures would get their facts straight, or visit here, before presuming to tell Americans what our life is about.
I think (though I can not speak for other people) Puapka is mostly talking about American companies like Facebook censoring nudity on the internet. Facebook also owns Instagram, so it's all the same, and it's very international. Every country have their own rules and their own internet, so it all varies, but it seems like the US has a particular fear of women's breasts. They always have and historically feel these images should be kept for a special type of "pervert" over the age of 18. This has only made seeing boobs a "taboo" for regular people, and people under the age of 18, even though little babies have been used to seeing their mother's breasts many times a day for like the first year of their life, right?

Playboy and Hustler, Burlesque shows, and all that have been considered the "darker" taboo side of life in the past, and lately, the 1950s are back in style again. However, I have only lived in the US, only visited Italy for an extended time, so I can't speak with expertise on any other place. I know in Italy, in the 1990s anyway, nudity was commonplace, even on TV commercials. Kids had zero hangups on tits, like night and day compared to young American boys, yet, they still behaved like young boys. They just didn't feel shame about their attraction to bodies.
 
As counter intuitive as that is, playboy is not a gotcha in any shape or form, pornography is extension of puritanism, not its opposite. The healthy relationship to human body is veneration, look at greek statues and see their relationship to body and nudity and compare it to crude distorted photographies of pornographic magazines, the misshapen libido of men. You can see in my t4t messiah thread how i tackle these concepts myself. Puritanism separates nudity and sensuality from our life in the veneration of christian shame of our bodies, and those libido forces have to go somewhere and so puritanism creates the very concept of pornography itself. I really don't care if specific state has looser rules around nudity of women, united states are waging a war on human flesh, on so called perversions and their corpos have power to enforce these far beyond their borders, europe is not good about it either but its definitely lighter on it. Europe is still patriarchal and that creates desire to police female bodies.
 
Zen; a similar argument comes up anytime someone speaks of the current censorship or banning of books that is going on in Florida, Texas, and elsewhere. It is stated that there is no censorship because almost any book can be purchased through Amazon or other commercial sellers. But these are being censored and banned in many school districts and even a number of public libraries. As Arty suggested, there is a good deal of censorship that happens on Facebook, Instagram, and other social media platforms. I think we all understand that any online platform has the right to establish rules and limitations to what is posted... but often these guidelines are not clear and not followed equally. There are so-called "influencers" who post images and videos that are not far from what one might see in a strip club that serves alcohol and requires the dancers be "clothed". So they wear something the size of a postage stamp and grind right into the patrons' faces. Facebook... and Instagram often look the other way with such. But an artistic nude photograph such as this...

7bfd67fed24726ff0833b1c1f89336b6.jpg


...or even paintings with a nude are frequently deleted and often lead to the deletion of the account. The paintings of Peter Paul Rubens... the Flemish master from the Baroque era (1577-1640) were targeted by Facebook censors to an almost comic extent leading the Belgian Department of Tourism to make this satirical video:


Nudity and sexual imagery certainly exist in American culture... but there are a good many from both side of the spectrum who would rather it didn't.

Howard Tullman is a collector of contemporary figurative art and owns quite a number of nudes. He touches on some of the politics of nudity in art in an article published in Artsy:

Artsy: Often, the nude gets tangled up in politics and censorship; it gets called pornography or blasted by political correctness. There is a lot of cultural effort in America to suppress nudity despite freedom of speech. Your thoughts on that?

HT: I’m discouraged that a lot of really good artists aren’t taking advantage of the broad distribution possibilities of the internet and how inexpensive it is to get their work seen, because of exactly that censorship issue.

... museums, by and large, are pretty modest about how much nudity they will display on a regular basis. And museums have very few contemporary realist nudes.

I was at a group exhibition at a prestigious small museum in California, and there were a few nudes in the show catalog. But when I got there, nothing on the walls. I asked one of the organizers and they said they didn’t want to hang art that made anyone uncomfortable.


Tulmann went on further to point out that no one questions why an artist chooses to focus on landscapes, or still-life... but it is different for the artist who paints the nude:

When any artist, male or female, paints a nude some judgement gets put on it that’s always unfair. If men paint women they are objectifying. If men paint men they are gay. If women paint women they are lesbian.

I have personally experienced this bias against the nude in art. I was invited to exhibit with a couple of other artists at the college where I was taking a course to be applied to my continuing education hours for my teaching job. The following paintings were accepted by the jurors and the gallery director:

Thumbs3.jpg


At the last minute, one of the college deans had 5 of the paintings pulled from the exhibition. Only Magdalena (the first painting on the left, bottom) remained. I have no idea how this one painting was chosen to remain. The dean, however, argued with the artists in the exhibition, the professors in the art department, and the gallery director, stating that the school was a public institution and he did not want to offend anyone. This same school has several nude life-drawing classes and drawings from these line the walls. Many seem to feel that drawing from the nude is a hold-over from the Renaissance. One is learning how to draw from observation, but heaven forbid one thinks to continue painting or sculpting the nude as part of one's oeuvre.

I attended an art school that required 2+ years of life drawing after the nude... but I was the only student who continued to draw and paint the nude. No one ever questioned me to my face... but then again, I'm rather big and might have intimidated many students. There was a girl who painted a series of romantic nudes of her boyfriend and herself. These were quite conservative... and yet she got attacked for painting "pornography".

I think the issue of nudity in art is quite complex.
 
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Zen; a similar argument comes up anytime someone speaks of the current censorship or banning of books that is going on in Florida, Texas, and elsewhere. It is stated that there is no censorship because almost any book can be purchased through Amazon or other commercial sellers. But these are being censored and banned in many school districts and even a number of public libraries. As Arty suggested, there is a good deal of censorship that happens on Facebook, Instagram, and other social media platforms. I think we all understand that any online platform has the right to establish rules and limitations to what is posted... but often these guidelines are not clear and not followed equally.
I dont think online platforms should have the right to limit what is posted :) i think they should die. They dominated our entire culture and now few guys with protestant backers should dictate entire culture? What a fucking hellworld. I support all forms of terrorism by the way.
When any artist, male or female, paints a nude some judgement gets put on it that’s always unfair. If men paint women they are objectifying. If men paint men they are gay. If women paint women they are lesbian.
hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahhahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha

Comparing the fact that men had monopoly on conversation on female flesh for centuries to being called gay is so EMBARASSINGLY goofy, how does artsty lives with himself after saying that.

HT: I’m discouraged that a lot of really good artists aren’t taking advantage of the broad distribution possibilities of the internet and how inexpensive it is to get their work seen, because of exactly that censorship issue.
We kind of already established internet sucks and is very prone to censorship, but let me add that a lot of art is reduced by taking digital form, just how rothko on wikipedia becomes a red square from rich experience according to my friend (i didnt see it personally) Its similalry the case with richness of many form of painting or sculpture, only drawing is close to 1:1. Besides internet is dying, you see this right? Its becoming so useless so worthless, so distorted from what it was, this connection, conversation on art we have right now is practically a relic of 00's
 
I really don't care if specific state has looser rules around nudity of women, united states are waging a war on human flesh, on so called perversions and their corpos have power to enforce these far beyond their borders, europe is not good about it either but its definitely lighter on it. Europe is still patriarchal and that creates desire to police female bodies.
So what's your point? Facts please, not feelings.
 
Puapka is mostly talking about American companies like Facebook censoring nudity on the internet.
I may be mistaken, but I think FaceBook originally presented as a family-friendly platform, so why wouldn't they? There are a million other places to find nudity.
 
So what's your point? Facts please, not feelings.
im gonna be honest this is a line showing youre not really engaging in good faith, ive shown how it all works and what it does and youre reducing it all to facts vs feelings? Internet has been lowered to few semi usable social media sites, all policed by puritanicals, only social media you can post nudity on is owned by a nazi, if you dont see that then... well once you are first asleep, you shall stay asleep eternally ;)
 
I dont think online platforms should have the right to limit what is posted :) i think they should die. They dominated our entire culture and now few guys with protestant backers should dictate entire culture? What a fucking hellworld.

You are always free to start your own online forum or other means of disseminating ideas and imagery. It's naive to believe that any such means of publication will be free of any sort of editorial oversight.

I support all forms of terrorism by the way.

So would that include the "terrorism" of those powers that would destroy all that you love?

Comparing the fact that men had monopoly on conversation on female flesh for centuries to being called gay is so EMBARASSINGLY goofy, how does artsty lives with himself after saying that.

I don't think that is what is being suggested at all.

We kind of already established internet sucks...

Well... at least you have suggested that. And yet here you are...

and is very prone to censorship...

But what form of publication isn't prone to censorship?


... but let me add that a lot of art is reduced by taking digital form, just how rothko on wikipedia becomes a red square from rich experience according to my friend (i didnt see it personally) Its similalry the case with richness of many form of painting or sculpture,..

Isn't that true of any form of reproduction? Paintings and sculpture and architecture are all quite different from photographic reproductions of the same... digital or otherwise. Certainly, some works of art... such as Rothko's paintings (which I have experienced in real life) suffer more than others in reproduction. Unfortunately, the are more than a few people who fail to grasp the degree of loss from an original work of art to a reproduction.

Besides internet is dying, you see this right? Its becoming so useless so worthless, so distorted from what it was, this connection, conversation on art we have right now is practically a relic of 00's

I don't see the Internet dying. It is certainly changing and there are certain aspects of the Internet that have largely died off... but the INternet as a whole? What art form have we not heard was dead at one time or another?
 
im gonna be honest this is a line showing youre not really engaging in good faith, ive shown how it all works and what it does and youre reducing it all to facts vs feelings? Internet has been lowered to few semi usable social media sites, all policed by puritanicals, only social media you can post nudity on is owned by a nazi, if you dont see that then... well once you are first asleep, you shall stay asleep eternally ;)
Yup, that's what I'm doing. My original rant was not about nudity or censorship, it was about people from other cultures making broad generalizations about American culture when they don't understand it. I understand what you're saying about media censorship, I follow media news and I can see the censorship of political news. I don't care about FaceBook censoring nudity, that's not the right platform for it. FaceBook is the only social media I use to keep in touch with a few friends and family, why would I want to post or receive nudity? There are a million other avenues for that. The internet is not dead or dying by any means despite social media. We could get a serious education that might make money for us through Google, Wikileaks, YouTube, Chordify, etc. on and on.

To ease your mind, I've looked at your artwork and I think you're pretty damn good, I like what you do. Stick to that. You can sleep easy tonight. Peace 😀
 
Yup, that's what I'm doing. My original rant was not about nudity or censorship, it was about people from other cultures making broad generalizations about American culture when they don't understand it. I understand what you're saying about media censorship, I follow media news and I can see the censorship of political news. I don't care about FaceBook censoring nudity, that's not the right platform for it. FaceBook is the only social media I use to keep in touch with a few friends and family, why would I want to post or receive nudity? There are a million other avenues for that. The internet is not dead or dying by any means despite social media. We could get a serious education that might make money for us through Google, Wikileaks, YouTube, Chordify, etc. on and on.

To ease your mind, I've looked at your artwork and I think you're pretty damn good, I like what you do. Stick to that. You can sleep easy tonight. Peace 😀
We live in a globalized world, i am exposed to united states very time i go to the internet. I have studied america liteature and history beforing dropping out of college, and even beyond that i have watched and read essays on the state (or states) or things, whenever i take interest in a subject most of liteature on it is in english and filtered through american lense. Its infuriating how americans all go "you dont live here nuh uh you cant judge" even thou we are all exposed to americaall of the time.

You keep focusing on example of facebook, and yet i keep saying that no social media is good for uploading drawnings of nudity, and it being pushed away from main places people are creates this puritan-pornography landscape i just explained, where artistic nudity suffers the most, and id loooooove for you to list 10 decent sites, i know you said milions, but im a reasonable man woman or neither. This forum is in fact one of few places where i can somewhat interact with human flesh as something artistic (regardless of whether im achieving much in that area)

Screen_Shot_2021-03-01_at_2.28.39_PM.png

I dont think online platforms should have the right to limit what is posted :) i think they should die. They dominated our entire culture and now few guys with protestant backers should dictate entire culture? What a fucking hellworld.

You are always free to start your own online forum or other means of disseminating ideas and imagery. It's naive to believe that any such means of publication will be free of any sort of editorial oversight.
Im poor
I support all forms of terrorism by the way.
So would that include the "terrorism" of those powers that would destroy all that you love?
yeag
Isn't that true of any form of reproduction? Paintings and sculpture and architecture are all quite different from photographic reproductions of the same... digital or otherwise. Certainly, some works of art... such as Rothko's paintings (which I have experienced in real life) suffer more than others in reproduction. Unfortunately, the are more than a few people who fail to grasp the degree of loss from an original work of art to a reproduction.
sure

I don't see the Internet dying. It is certainly changing and there are certain aspects of the Internet that have largely died off... but the INternet as a whole? What art form have we not heard was dead at one time or another?
heh
 
First I learned to see and hear. Then I crawled, walked, and learned from talk. That’s when my troubles began.
 
I have studied america liteature and history beforing dropping out of college, and even beyond that i have watched and read essays on the state (or states) or things, whenever i take interest in a subject most of liteature on it is in english and filtered through american lense.
Thank you, we appreciate your effort to learn.

Its infuriating how americans all go "you dont live here nuh uh you cant judge" even thou we are all exposed to americaall of the time.
Then you understand how Americans get infuriated when Europeans take that attitude about us. I had a professor from England say to us in class "Americans have no culture."
 
Then you understand how Americans get infuriated when Europeans take that attitude about us. I had a professor from England say to us in class "Americans have no culture."
That professor from england sounds dumb, everyone heard about slavery and 9/11
 
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