Do you have any business advice please?

[randarrington]

I'm just starting to think about trying and selling my art but I honestly have no idea how to price it. Do. any of you have suggestions or a way of calculating a price?

should I think of making some type of prints and are there any companies that you've successfully used?

I was also thinking about products of some type. Maybe stationary or mugs....I'm just not sure. Do any of you have any advice or experience in that area?

Thank you for in advice you may have!!!!!

 

[LizC]

To get an idea on how to price your art you can do an internet search for art similar to yours and see what the artists charge for them, since you are new price a little lower than that and if you start getting sales you can slowly up the price.

For selling on products there's print on demand sites like Zazzle where you can put your art for sale on posters, mugs, etc. and it doesn't cost you anything but your time.

 

[randarrington]

To get an idea on how to price your art you can do an internet search for art similar to yours and see what the artists charge for them, since you are new price a little lower than that and if you start getting sales you can slowly up the price.

For selling on products there's print on demand sites like Zazzle where you can put your art for sale on posters, mugs, etc. and it doesn't cost you anything but your time.

Thank you for that information. I'll see what I can find as far pricing and I'll check out zazzle

 

[PaintBoss]

The biggest thing about getting prints done is you have to have your artwork photographed professionally with a very special type of camera. Even professional photographers have a hard time getting it without glare or even lighting and detail. These specialized cameras can stand many feet back to capture even the tiniest details on very large paintings, even the weave of the canvas.There are many commercial photographers with all the gear/studios who say they can do it. I’ve tried them and they couldn’t quite get the lighting right. They even said so. And never the kind of detail needed if they had to stand quite far back to photograph a very large piece. There was a place in Canada, well known professional artists, who did this. They used a very specialized camera they purchased in approx.1980. It was was $80000 then or maybe even more. It has been doing a great job ever since.. So artists paid more to get it professionally done, but they put it on a digital storage device for their use. It is a huge file. Then the artist could get prints whenever they wished. They would pick the types of paper and print on demand. They. have just retired.
There is a newer place I’ve heard from but I’m not sure how they do it or how well reproductions turn out. I might look into it.

 

[srr_disclosal]

Hi @PaintBoss I happened to read this and wanted to comment on your sentence "very special camera".

Recently I've learned that you don't need a special camera. All you need is a regular camera that can take good pictures. An entry-level camera is more than enough, and you can probably even rely on your phone's camera.

The most important thing we need is just a CPL filter.
A filter commonly used for car photography or landscapes under sun exposure.

 

[Hannah]

I would not use a polarizing filter to photograph art, as it changes the colors the lens sees. Blues, especially, will not be accurate. Which you can fix "in post," but to me, the closer you can get to reality with the raw image, the better.

Also, a phone camera might be fine for photographing your work for Instagram or this forum or whatever, but it is woefully inadequate for reproduction, which I think is the subject here.

On the other hand, you also don't need an $80,000 graphic reproduction camera. Any full-frame digital camera on a decent tripod with a budget 85mm or 100mm prime lens will do a great job. Oh, and some lights.

Not exactly cheap, and there's a learning curve, but if you plan to photograph a lot of work, it's a good investment. And much cheaper than paying a professional whenever you need pictures. The camera, lens, and lights will cost less than two or three sessions with a pro.

 

[randarrington]

Hi @PaintBoss I happened to read this and wanted to comment on your sentence "very special camera".

Recently I've learned that you don't need a special camera. All you need is a regular camera that can take good pictures. An entry-level camera is more than enough, and you can probably even rely on your phone's camera.

The most important thing we need is just a CPL filter.
A filter commonly used for car photography or landscapes under sun exposure.View attachment 54142

I've never used a polarizing lens. Based on the comments from Hannah...it might be fine for my charcoal work. I'll have to pick one up and try it just to see how it goes. Thank you for the information!!!!

 

[randarrington]

I would not use a polarizing filter to photograph art, as it changes the colors the lens sees. Blues, especially, will not be accurate. Which you can fix "in post," but to me, the closer you can get to reality with the raw image, the better.

Also, a phone camera might be fine for photographing your work for Instagram or this forum or whatever, but it is woefully inadequate for reproduction, which I think is the subject here.

On the other hand, you also don't need an $80,000 graphic reproduction camera. Any full-frame digital camera on a decent tripod with a budget 85mm or 100mm prime lens will do a great job. Oh, and some lights.

Not exactly cheap, and there's a learning curve, but if you plan to photograph a lot of work, it's a good investment. And much cheaper than paying a professional whenever you need pictures. The camera, lens, and lights will cost less than two or three sessions with a pro.

I did not know that about the polarizing lens. I'm doing charcoal so it might be ok. I'll pick one up and give it a try just to see what happens. I have a camera and the lights but I'm not sure I'm setting the lights up correctly.

I think my camera is a Rebel but I don't remember the exact model.

I was hoping to get information on products and if anyone has tried that and if it worked. I also was curious as to how people price the work. That part is completely befuddling.

Thank you for the information!!!!

 

[Bongo]

I did not know that about the polarizing lens. I'm doing charcoal so it might be ok. I'll pick one up and give it a try just to see what happens. I have a camera and the lights but I'm not sure I'm setting the lights up correctly.

I think my camera is a Rebel but I don't remember the exact model.

Almost any modern camera will be okay. (but not electronic shutter with led lights)
The big factor is HOW you take the photograph,.-- just some considerations:

lit evenly with color balanced lights
proper white balance
camera centered and 90degrees to painting to reduce parallax.
proper exposure
focus - camera on tripod with timed or remote shutter.
black cloth behind camera to reduce glare
....
A polarizer on a camera will not do anything for photographing paintings unless you put them on the lights also - not worth the hassle in most cases. That being said, a polarizer is useful for outdoors.

 

[endersaka]

Almost any modern camera will be okay. (but not electronic shutter with led lights)
[...]

Indeed. I believe the most difficult things are the alignment of the camera, finding the perfect focus, and regulating correctly the light, which, of course, in a home-made context, could become a challenging task.

I am going to test similar approach for my watercolors, but with limited hardware. I mean, the camera is not a full frame and I do not have a prime lens. The light is acceptable but not professional. I need to figure out how to align everything and then: focus, what lens to use, etc.

For the polarization, I agree that in controlled environment is not necessary and it can affect the colors.

 

[endersaka]

I'm just starting to think about trying and selling my art but I honestly have no idea how to price it. Do. any of you have suggestions or a way of calculating a price?

Hi @randarrington, I'd like to share my perspective about this topic, which is, actually, very complicated.

Let say that because of human behavior (that is frequently far from rational) and market (which is essentially chaos) it is very hard to define a deterministic starting point.

If we speak of simple math, it is relatively easy. You set the minimum gross earnings per year for a decent living in your country. For example, in Italy, it is somewhere between € 25000 and € 45000 (for a single person). Then you divide it by the number of ours that you are supposed to work. I usually consider 52 weeks minus 4 weeks of vacation and 1-2 weeks of possible sick leave, therefore, the total amount of hours per year you will work is: 46 x 40 = 1840 hours of work per year. That said, you have to consider that your work is not only drawing and painting. If you plan to make a real job out of it, you will have to manage it (bureaucracy, taxes management, invoicing, fulfillments, etc.), promote it (marketing, workshops, gallery relationships, public relations, etc.), manage your clients (including briefing, meetings, etc.). So, you don't actually paint or draw, 40 hours per week. And if you do it, it means that you are paying someone to manage all the rest for you. Let's say optimistically that you will draw/paint 50% of working time: 1840 / 2 = 920. So, your hourly price is RAL / 920, if you know, how much time it takes to finish a subject (on average), you know the price. For example, in my case, lets say I point to earn € 35000 per year.

35000 / 920 = about € 38 per hour (which is pretty close to what any professional of any profession in Italy could ask)

How long it takes to complete a portrait of mine, let's say with colored pencils? Some hours possibly. Probably between 4 to 8 hours. I go for 6: 38 x 6 = € 228 for a colored pencil portrait (no background or very simple, bust framing, A4-A3 format... Pencils artwork time is highly influenced by size of the artwork). Which is pretty plausible.

In other cases, I read of pricing by size. You just set an amount per cm or inch. A4 is 21 x 29.7 = 623.7 cm, which means I was pricing my A4 € 0.366 per cm: 623.7 x 0.366 about € 228.

Though, despite the modest price, no one want to buy them . What are, nowadays, € 228? I spend them in 1 evening at the restaurant, for 2 persons, if I am lucky, 2 hours of pleasure, gone. Years ago, a friend asked me if I would have drawn a b&w portrait of his favorite singer, A2 format, when I told him I would have charged him € 400 (because he is a friend), his eyes popped out of their sockets .

That said, there are artists charging even much more. Thomas Wells Shaller which is one of my favorite artists charges $ 1500 on average for a 15 x 11 inches (almost an A3 format) of his watercolors. Which is about € 1200-1300. Not bad, it is about 4 times my prices, though he has got a reputation (not without some lucky opportunity, of course). On the other end, Oliver Pyle, another one among my favorite artists and exquisite watercolor master, compared, only charge on average £ 500 for the same size, which is about € 575.50, essentially half the price of Shaller.

Still, if we are speaking of artistic value, I see Pyle at the same level of Shaller. This is where, the market, and the artist positioning in that market, makes a difference.

Then, it comes my personal opinion (not only mine, it is supported by many professionals) an A3 watercolor painting (well painted: not bad; neither a Canaletto... reasonably well painted), under € 500 is unacceptable (I am talking about advanced countries with a relatively high cost of life like USA, Canada, Iceland, UK, north-west Europe, etc.).

About prices (professional ones) there is a very interesting article by Nick Macari, https://nickmacari.com/comic-page-rates-and-creator-budgets/, pointing out what are the real prices for a comic book page, which is close for complexity to a painting and sometimes even exceeds the single illustration painting complexity.

 

[Bongo]

endersaka:
If we speak of simple math, it is relatively easy. You set the minimum gross earnings per year for a decent living in your country.

In your example to earn $35,000 a year you need to price paintings a $225. each - but that means you'd have to sell at least 155 paintings each year to reach the $35,000.

So if you are REALISTICALLY basing the price of your paintings on what they would have to sell for to make a decent living -- then you also have to consider how many paintings you are likely to sell in a year. So just starting out - zero sales per year is not uncommon. But let's say you were off to a good start and sold 5 - - that means you have to price them at $7,000 a piece.

My point is that basing your selling price on what's required to make a "decent" living is NOT a good metric to use.

 

[Bongo]

ooops

 

[endersaka]

My point is that basing your selling price on what's required to make a "decent" living is NOT a good metric to use.

I agree with you for all except the last sentence.

You are right when you say that my calculation is based on the assumption that you sell all the 155 paintings per year, which is obviously impossible (or very unlikely to happen).

On the other hand, it is not an exclusive solution. It is not like: "This formula does not output an accurate prediction; therefore, we trash it!". Physics science would collapse if we reasoned like that. Newton laws work for a limited use case, though, it is the foundation of Astronomy. With more research it came out there are better mathematical models.

My formula is a starting point. You know that under that value it makes no sense at all.

Though, no one will pay € 7000 for a painting of an unknown artist. I would like so, but it is nearly impossible.

 

[Enyaw]

Expectations rarely meet reality but some do and some exceed because of things we cannot understand. To formulate something based on things that should happen but are not in our control is like tossing a penny in a wishing well and going home to enjoy our wish come true. Odds are we will be disappointed in our return. However with resolve and dedication some head out in search of a dream and few in between realize their dreams come true. You never know if you don't go.

 

[endersaka]

Thanks, @Enyaw

I agree that there’s always a mix of planning and unpredictability in any creative path. My intention was simply to outline one possible way of thinking about the numbers. In the end, each artist finds their own balance between practical considerations and the more intangible side of the journey.

 

[PaintBoss]

Hi @PaintBoss I happened to read this and wanted to comment on your sentence "very special camera".

Recently I've learned that you don't need a special camera. All you need is a regular camera that can take good pictures. An entry-level camera is more than enough, and you can probably even rely on your phone's camera.

The most important thing we need is just a CPL filter.
A filter commonly used for car photography or landscapes under sun exposure.View attachment 54142

Hi, sorry this has taken so long so long for me to reply. The business I was talking about just retired and has gone out of business. I’ve been trying to find information about their very specialized camera. I had read articles years ago about it. The man showed it to me at their studios. And described it. But that was over 15 years ago It is unlike usual cameras even very good ones. And somehow they managed the lighting that other large studios cannot get right. It’s a tricky business. Of course things might be better now. The biggest attribute was they could stand 25 feet or more, back to take a photo of a huge piece and they could get details right down to the tiniest weave in the canvas. In great detail. I don’t know what the camera was called. I wish I did so I could let you know what it is. If I ever come across it, I will let you know.

 

[Bongo]

endersaka:
My formula is a starting point. You know that under that value it makes no sense at all.

So now that you've figured the minimum you want to make -$225 per painting. you'll need to find a venue that offers paintings of a similar genre/quality for around $400 - since a gallery typically takes 40-50%. Selling your first painting for $400. would be a feat.

 

[endersaka]

endersaka:
My formula is a starting point. You know that under that value it makes no sense at all.

So now that you've figured the minimum you want to make -$225 per painting. you'll need to find a venue that offers paintings of a similar genre/quality for around $400 - since a gallery typically takes 40-50%. Selling your first painting for $400. would be a feat.

That's a very good point, indeed!

Do you see? I told you. My formula is the starting point.

For example, in my case, since I never worked with a gallery, I didn't know about that percentages.

Gallery fees (or other fees) belong, indeed, to the category of expenses which include quite a number of things. For example, following your input I make a possible list.

• Gallery commissions (if applicable).
• Agent commissions (if applicable).
• Online marketplace commissions (if applicable). For example: Fiverr (which takes 20%), Foundmyself, Redbubble, etc. They are different type of marketplaces, though for simplicity I put all of them right here.
• Payment Method fees: PayPal, Stripe, your bank, etc.
• Delivering fees (if applicable, digital art doesn't have this fee usually).
• Compliancy taxes fees, which are not normal government taxes (for example, in Italy, I should register all my physical artworks to the Ministero delle Belle Arti, before to sell them, and I don't really know the costs yet).
• Copyright registration fees.
• Any other thing that comes to your mind...

 

[OliveOyl]

Pricing a painting…

A gallery owner once told me to look at work being done in your area that’s similar to what you do. Take into consideration the size, materials used, the length of time to complete, and the complexity of the process, as well….because bigger, longer, more complex might justify a higher price. Also, an “original” one-of-kind work is usually expected to be priced higher than prints.

I was also told it’s easy to increase your prices as you go along but not a great look if you start cutting prices. And if you post a particular work for a particular price, then that should remain consistent across all the places you’re trying to sell it.

I’m not 100% certain any of this is true but that’s what I’ve been following.

As you know, there are online galleries which are free to join, and some/all? have the option to sell your work as a print. Note though, that you’re most likely going to compete with millions of other artists on there, so it’s hard to get “noticed.” I’ve been on Saatchi for 7 years and nothing has EVER happened and so I was getting ready to delete my account. Not worth the bother. But suddenly, just last week, I sold a painting to a guy in London who I don’t know much else about.

It was a learning moment. After Saatchi took their 40% commission and the customer took their 15-20% allowed discount, and after I paid out of pocket for the packaging (very specific requirements…8 layers!), then my payout is barely worth the effort. And still, later, I’ll have to pay state taxes on that puny payout. Thankfully, the customer paid for shipping, or else it would have been (almost) free!

I whined a bit and they said, “Well, now you can always go in and raise your prices!” Okay. I will! I’ll add 60% on TOP of the asking price to cover commissions and/or discounts. And maybe if I get greedy, I’ll tack on another $200 to cover packaging and taxes. Just in case that rare and elusive sales situation ever happens again, then the higher pricing will make this sales nonsense a little more worthwhile…